Poll: Which ancient Liturgy do you prefer
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Ancient Liturgy Preference (only respond if you have attended both)
#71
(08-24-2011, 07:23 PM)usque ad hilaritatem Wrote:
(08-23-2011, 11:50 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: The east has been a plague to the Church since the 11th century.

A plague? Really? How disrespectful can you be to such an ancient tradition within the Church?

In Vetus's defense he's pretty critical of all rites of the Church. 
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#72
(08-24-2011, 07:33 PM)Peter J Wrote:
(08-24-2011, 12:54 AM)Silouan Wrote:
(08-23-2011, 11:50 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: The east has been a plague to the Church since the 11th century.


Then why pursue the unia so energetically? We would be more than happy to take them back and relieve you of that "plague" at any time.

There are different views within the Catholic Church.

For example, there are some who agree with Vetus Ordo, but believe that the Union of Brest, and similar unias, were the cure to that disease.

P.S. Of course, there are also some of us who don't agree with Vetus Ordo's statement at all.


I understand that. Frankly I couldn't care less if Vetus thinks we are a plague. He says he wasn't talking about Eastern Catholics but his criticism of our "nationalism" applies to the Eastern Catholic Churches as well. Of course one could be excused, considering the treatment they have received at the hands of the Vatican and various Latin bishops, for thinking the Latin Church has at times considered the Eastern Catholic Churches a "plague" or at best a red-headed step child . From the actions of Catholic bishop John Ireland to the forced removal of iconostasis' here in the States to Pope Pius Pius XI placing his foot on the neck of Patriarch Gregory, there is a history of mistreatment and suppression of Eastern Catholics by the Latin Church.

Thankfully since Vatican II there seems to be new found respect for the various Eastern Churches. The encouragement to return to their authentic Eastern traditions is a wonderful thing. Sadly there seems to still be a general lack of knowledge about the Eastern Churches and in some cases residual prejudices seem to remain. Hopefully in time those will fade away.
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#73
(08-24-2011, 11:51 PM)Silouan Wrote: I understand that. Frankly I couldn't care less if Vetus thinks we are a plague. He says he wasn't talking about Eastern Catholics but his criticism of our "nationalism" applies to the Eastern Catholic Churches as well. Of course one could be excused, considering the treatment they have received at the hands of the Vatican and various Latin bishops, for thinking the Latin Church has at times considered the Eastern Catholic Churches a "plague" or at best a red-headed step child . From the actions of Catholic bishop John Ireland to the forced removal of iconostasis' here in the States to Pope Pius Pius XI placing his foot on the neck of Patriarch Gregory, there is a history of mistreatment and suppression of Eastern Catholics by the Latin Church.

Thankfully since Vatican II there seems to be new found respect for the various Eastern Churches. The encouragement to return to their authentic Eastern traditions is a wonderful thing. Sadly there seems to still be a general lack of knowledge about the Eastern Churches and in some cases residual prejudices seem to remain. Hopefully in time those will fade away.

An excellent post Siloan, though I think you mean Pope Pius IX, not Pius XI (I've read various and divergent accounts as to what actually happened between Pius IX and Patriarch Gregory, and why).  Otherwise I agree with all you wrote.

A good read, in my opinon, as to the respect that Latin Rite Catholics should have for the Eastern Church is the Encyclical Rerum Orientalium of Pope Pius XI, promlugated on September 8, 1928: http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11REROR.HTM.

It is a good antidote to Vestus' view on this particular topic (I more often than not appreciate his view point).
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#74
(08-24-2011, 11:51 PM)Silouan Wrote: I understand that. Frankly I couldn't care less if Vetus thinks we are a plague. He says he wasn't talking about Eastern Catholics but his criticism of our "nationalism" applies to the Eastern Catholic Churches as well. Of course one could be excused, considering the treatment they have received at the hands of the Vatican and various Latin bishops, for thinking the Latin Church has at times considered the Eastern Catholic Churches a "plague" or at best a red-headed step child . From the actions of Catholic bishop John Ireland to the forced removal of iconostasis' here in the States to Pope Pius Pius XI placing his foot on the neck of Patriarch Gregory, there is a history of mistreatment and suppression of Eastern Catholics by the Latin Church.

Thankfully since Vatican II there seems to be new found respect for the various Eastern Churches. The encouragement to return to their authentic Eastern traditions is a wonderful thing. Sadly there seems to still be a general lack of knowledge about the Eastern Churches and in some cases residual prejudices seem to remain. Hopefully in time those will fade away.

I don't understand why any bishop would make them remove the Iconostasis...

Church architecture for the most part has nothing to do with theological differences or disputes..

Anyone who has seen an Iconostasis know's it looks 100 times nicer then your typical American Church built post -1970 since this new almost iconoclastic style of Church building has developed in the West.

[Image: iconostasis1.jpg]

Vs.

[Image: jubileeint.jpg]
(Yes that's Catholic ^)

Removing the Iconostasis is completely unnecessary and controversies like that can easily be avoided if the Rites just respected each other and left each other alone.

In respect to Vatican II I have a feeling  it has allowed some Eastern errors to be re-accepted by the faithful, although I don't know enough about VII and the East...  But I still don't understand why veneration of Gregory Palamas and the practicing of his errors (hesychasm) hasn't been stopped by one of the councils.
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#75
(08-24-2011, 11:51 PM)Silouan Wrote: Thankfully since Vatican II there seems to be new found respect for the various Eastern Churches. The encouragement to return to their authentic Eastern traditions is a wonderful thing. Sadly there seems to still be a general lack of knowledge about the Eastern Churches and in some cases residual prejudices seem to remain. Hopefully in time those will fade away.

Get a life. What are you even doing here?

Your hypocrisy is disgusting.
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#76
(08-25-2011, 12:50 AM)K3vinhood Wrote:
(08-24-2011, 11:51 PM)Silouan Wrote: I understand that. Frankly I couldn't care less if Vetus thinks we are a plague. He says he wasn't talking about Eastern Catholics but his criticism of our "nationalism" applies to the Eastern Catholic Churches as well. Of course one could be excused, considering the treatment they have received at the hands of the Vatican and various Latin bishops, for thinking the Latin Church has at times considered the Eastern Catholic Churches a "plague" or at best a red-headed step child . From the actions of Catholic bishop John Ireland to the forced removal of iconostasis' here in the States to Pope Pius Pius XI placing his foot on the neck of Patriarch Gregory, there is a history of mistreatment and suppression of Eastern Catholics by the Latin Church.

Thankfully since Vatican II there seems to be new found respect for the various Eastern Churches. The encouragement to return to their authentic Eastern traditions is a wonderful thing. Sadly there seems to still be a general lack of knowledge about the Eastern Churches and in some cases residual prejudices seem to remain. Hopefully in time those will fade away.

I don't understand why any bishop would make them remove the Iconostasis...

Church architecture for the most part has nothing to do with theological differences or disputes..

Anyone who has seen an Iconostasis know's it looks 100 times nicer then your typical American Church built post -1970 since this new almost iconoclastic style of Church building has developed in the West.

[img]http://www.ieslosremedios.org/~paqui/proyecto/iconostasis1.jpg[/img ]

Vs.

[img]http://www.galinsky.com/buildings/jubilee/jubileeint.jpg[/img ]
(Yes that's Catholic ^)

Removing the Iconostasis is completely unnecessary and controversies like that can easily be avoided if the Rites just respected each other and left each other alone.

Can be, yes, but in actual point of fact, "latinization" was extremely common.

In retrospect, perhaps we shouldn't be too terribly surprised by how many changes were made to the Roman-rite liturgy post-vatican2, given how many changes were imposed on eastern liturgies pre-vatican2.

:scratch chin:
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#77
(08-25-2011, 09:43 AM)Peter J Wrote: In retrospect, perhaps we shouldn't be too terribly surprised by how many changes were made to the Roman-rite liturgy post-vatican2, given how many changes were imposed on eastern liturgies pre-vatican2.

God will not be mocked :)  I've always wondered if the NO was a chastisement from God on the Latins for what was done to the Eastern Catholics.
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#78
(08-25-2011, 01:17 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: Get a life.


Says the man with 12,095 posts......................... 8)
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#79
(08-25-2011, 09:47 AM)Melkite Wrote:
(08-25-2011, 09:43 AM)Peter J Wrote: In retrospect, perhaps we shouldn't be too terribly surprised by how many changes were made to the Roman-rite liturgy post-vatican2, given how many changes were imposed on eastern liturgies pre-vatican2.

God will not be mocked :)  I've always wondered if the NO was a chastisement from God on the Latins for what was done to the Eastern Catholics.

Well, I can't prove that it wasn't, but personally I'm inclined to see it more as a logical continuation and extension of what happened to the Eastern liturgies.
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#80
(08-25-2011, 09:43 AM)Peter J Wrote:
(08-25-2011, 12:50 AM)K3vinhood Wrote: Removing the Iconostasis is completely unnecessary and controversies like that can easily be avoided if the Rites just respected each other and left each other alone.

Can be, yes, but in actual point of fact, "latinization" was extremely common.

In retrospect, perhaps we shouldn't be too terribly surprised by how many changes were made to the Roman-rite liturgy post-vatican2, given how many changes were imposed on eastern liturgies pre-vatican2.
:scratch chin:
I think this is pretty close to the mark, actually - with the caveat that Latin liturgical meddling of ages past was not limited to Eastern rites, but extended to its own native (pre-Tridentine) collection of liturgical rites, suppressing ancient local variants in favor of uniformity.  I'm by no means an expert, but my impression is that the rationalist tendencies of the Western Church resulted in a preference for this legislated liturgical uniformity at the expense of received liturgical tradition. 

For instance, rood screens, the Western equivalent of Iconostases were actually quite common up until the Council of Trent, after which they were removed in many places to improve sight lines between the nave and the altar.  I believe St Charles Borromeo was instrumental in this and other changes to Church architecture and ornament.  This particular act seems to me to be consistent with the doctrinal emphasis of Trent on Transubstantiation  and seems to be but one example of a Latin desire to bring the externals of worship into conformity with doctrinal principles (e.g. the faithful being able to see the "most important" part of the mass).  This stands in contrast to my impression of the Eastern ethos which would see the liturgy as a source, rather than tool of doctrine, and would thus recoil from any artificially imposed changes.

I find it interesting to contemplate in the desire of post-Tridentine reformers to allow visual participation of the laity in the sacrifice a forerunner of the participatio actuosa enjoined by the second Vatican council.  In this light, the tendency for legislation to trump Tradition does not seem all that unique to Vatican II.
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