bishop williamson
#41
(09-10-2011, 11:38 PM)Scipio_a Wrote: Good advice...all in the sale

Yep.  She was talking about getting a pony to trot, but it works on people, too.  :)
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#42
(09-11-2011, 12:17 AM)Lydia Grace Wrote:
(09-10-2011, 05:52 PM)Iolanthe Wrote:
(09-10-2011, 05:10 PM)Petertherock Wrote:
(09-10-2011, 05:09 PM)Iolanthe Wrote: More one-sided bilge from B. It's "easier" for women to adapt....how convenient for men.  :laughing: And what is his real goal in wanting all women to be uneducated, anyway?

It seems to me you are married to the world and could care less what the traditional roles of the husband and wife are. AKA...you're a feminist.

What he's calling "traditional roles" are this: women should lie and pretend everything is okay instead of finding an actual solution.

I'm tired of the knee-jerk "you're a feminist" response. Someone else try to do better, please.

What actual solution did he give to this woman? Can anyone tell me what advice he gave her?

He also thinks a woman's most important place is in the kitchen.

Iolanthe, you aren't a feminist, just a fighter. If you, Louis_Martin, and I could get together and talk about an idea to which we all are strongly opposed, we would have one of the most enjoyable times of our lives! Can we set a date for talking about the NFP requirement? 

I think he told her to conform to her husband's wishes.

What I think he's saying:
If he's crabby, be nice and don't correct anything he does wrong. (Here I think you should still correct him, but gently, and perhaps after he has calmed down.)
Be a milquetoast.
Teach your girls that they should be in the kitchen.


This one really gets me "Be lovable." What? Does that mean to act all cute like a teddy bear? If your husband can't love you through bad times, why did he marry you? No one is always nice and sweet and good. Husbands as well as wives need to learn to deal with the other's stress or crabbiness.

The NFP discussion would be rather boring as you're all in agreement.

Stop thinking, get back into the kitchen, and bake me a pie :-p
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#43
(09-11-2011, 01:48 AM)Someone1776 Wrote:
(09-11-2011, 12:17 AM)Lydia Grace Wrote:
(09-10-2011, 05:52 PM)Iolanthe Wrote:
(09-10-2011, 05:10 PM)Petertherock Wrote:
(09-10-2011, 05:09 PM)Iolanthe Wrote: More one-sided bilge from B. It's "easier" for women to adapt....how convenient for men.  :laughing: And what is his real goal in wanting all women to be uneducated, anyway?

It seems to me you are married to the world and could care less what the traditional roles of the husband and wife are. AKA...you're a feminist.

What he's calling "traditional roles" are this: women should lie and pretend everything is okay instead of finding an actual solution.

I'm tired of the knee-jerk "you're a feminist" response. Someone else try to do better, please.

What actual solution did he give to this woman? Can anyone tell me what advice he gave her?

He also thinks a woman's most important place is in the kitchen.

Iolanthe, you aren't a feminist, just a fighter. If you, Louis_Martin, and I could get together and talk about an idea to which we all are strongly opposed, we would have one of the most enjoyable times of our lives! Can we set a date for talking about the NFP requirement? 

I think he told her to conform to her husband's wishes.

What I think he's saying:
If he's crabby, be nice and don't correct anything he does wrong. (Here I think you should still correct him, but gently, and perhaps after he has calmed down.)
Be a milquetoast.
Teach your girls that they should be in the kitchen.


This one really gets me "Be lovable." What? Does that mean to act all cute like a teddy bear? If your husband can't love you through bad times, why did he marry you? No one is always nice and sweet and good. Husbands as well as wives need to learn to deal with the other's stress or crabbiness.

The NFP discussion would be rather boring as you're all in agreement.

Stop thinking, get back into the kitchen, and bake me a pie :-p

Thinking is very dangerous. I was hit by a car as a kid because I thought  I could run across the busy street fast enough to avoid the cars.
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#44
(09-10-2011, 08:29 PM)banksy Wrote:BROKE BUT NOT BROKEN....

No..broken is the correct term.

Quote:Its rather touching that this holy bloke seems to have an opinion on everything...

That bothers you doesn't it?  Maybe you in your almighty wisdom should pronounce on how many opinions people should have. 

Quote:including how much Zyclon-B - OOPS SORRY - How much sugar to stir into the Kool-aid.

I guess by the fact that you don't stir sugar into Kool Aid makes Williamson a "sugar denier"

Or maybe I should simply ask you to prove where Williamson dictates on sugar amounts. Actually wanting proof would be problematic, wouldn't it? 

Quote:  And I'm sure he has lots of doe-eyed, peasant skirted admirers sitting on the edge of their uncomfortable chairs waiting for the next nugget from Uncle Billiamson spoken in endearing accents that remind us how green our valleys REALLY are.

Your sexist slant is showing. Why couldn't doe-eyed peasant skirted admirers of Williamson recognize the truth if he just happened to say it?  Chesterton would have a field day with you.

Quote:  So, as a matter of fact, YES -  we need hard-ass women speaking hard-ass thruths to weak and confused women.

Are you a hard-ass woman?  If not, why are you bothering to inject your opinion?
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#45
The fact that it came from +W is  the reason people are in an uproar.  He is despised by many.  Of course, if he doesn't say things like this, even though some are thinking it, who will? He's talking of the roles that God gave us creatures. Besides,  we're in the 21st century, we're not supposed to say stuff like this.

Heck, it went downhill when women got the vote and a license to drive, never mind the education comment.
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#46
Did someone mention Chesterton?

I read What's Wrong With The World earlier this year, and I'm sure he dealt with marriage in places.

Here's one relevant quote:
Quote:The whole aim of marriage is to fight through and survive the instant when incompatibility becomes unquestionable. For a man and a woman, as such, are incompatible.
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#47
(09-11-2011, 12:17 AM)Lydia Grace Wrote: This one really gets me "Be lovable." What? Does that mean to act all cute like a teddy bear? If your husband can't love you through bad times, why did he marry you? No one is always nice and sweet and good. Husbands as well as wives need to learn to deal with the other's stress or crabbiness.

It means develop virtue. That's what makes a person loving and lovable. If she's having problems she has to think of her own possible shortcomings and fix those before she can look to others to fix theirs. So while her attitude may not be the only problem in the marriage, it's the first place she has to examine if she wants to find a solution. Trying to take the sliver from his eye while poking him daily with the beam in her eye isn't exactly going to work, we all know that. We've all met THOSE women who are like nails on chalkboard to be around and you feel sorry for their families. I don't think it's bad advice to tell someone NOT to be that person. Now she may have reason to be bitchy, we don't know, but either way, whether we have reason to be bitchy or not, true virtue and true sanctity means overcoming that and accepting the imperfections and the trials in our lives with joy. It's one thing to fail at that every now and then, which we all do more or less frequently but it's another not to even try. That makes a person unlovable.

Think of Saint Monica. If anyone had a reason to be a jaded witch it would be her. She was stuck in a marriage with a husband  who cheated all the time and a rebellious wayward son both of which looked down upon her Faith and tested it to the max. She would have had all the "reason" in the world to hold that against them. She could have had great venting sessions with the girls and garnered all kinds of sympathy for her situation and evil looks towards her husband and he would have deserved it. But she's a saint because she did not allow herself the luxury of developing negative feelings and attitudes towards them even if it would have felt like the most natural and fairest thing to do.

The reverse would be if a man finds he is not respected by his family, he has to look to himself to be sure he is being respectable.

Also, you're newly in love and engaged. It seems very easy to love your intended through thick and thin right now. But God knows which trials test us to our limits and He doesn't let anyone get off easy. Saying we must love each other through the trials is much more easily said than done, especially if the trials come from within the marriage, directly from each other's shortcomings that either never change or take years to change. The repetition of dealing with the same issue on a daily basis for years (we're human, we dont' change overnight) can get wearing to say the least. That advice may hit you differently once you've been married 10+ years and realize how easy it is to turn on each other or be less than loving or lovable when the chips are down. If it were not difficult and at times impossible, it would not be such a triumph to get through it all together and still love each other in the end.
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#48
It seems like Wallflower will do some impressive mental acrobatics to defend the Bishop's words.

Saying "disguise" does not mean "don't rub it in"-- disguise means hide, there' s no getting around that.  Pride is a vice for men as well as women, but some here would like to cultivate that vice in men.
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#49
(09-11-2011, 02:03 PM)ErinIsNice Wrote: It seems like Wallflower will do some impressive mental acrobatics to defend the Bishop's words.

Saying "disguise" does not mean "don't rub it in"-- disguise means hide, there' s no getting around that.  Pride is a vice for men as well as women, but some here would like to cultivate that vice in men.

Right but does he mean hide as in lie or hide as in act in a virtuous manner even when you don't feel like it (which btw is a modern excuse for dropping virtue -- it's not "real" or "honest")? Have an argument but don't pretend you aren't doing your own mental gymnastics in adding negative connotations where there aren't any.

I've heard him go in detail on these ideas many times in the last 20 years, unlike the quick blurb we have here, and I have received personal advice as well and I am confident that I am remembering it well. So no, I'm not doing too much as far as mental gymnastics go; if and when he can elaborate, he elaborates very much along the lines I've explained. Where I wasn't sure, like if a working mother should also have the full brunt of the home work as well and not expect additional help from the husband, I said so.
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#50
(09-11-2011, 11:31 AM)wallflower Wrote:
(09-11-2011, 12:17 AM)Lydia Grace Wrote: This one really gets me "Be lovable." What? Does that mean to act all cute like a teddy bear? If your husband can't love you through bad times, why did he marry you? No one is always nice and sweet and good. Husbands as well as wives need to learn to deal with the other's stress or crabbiness.

It means develop virtue. That's what makes a person loving and lovable. If she's having problems she has to think of her own possible shortcomings and fix those before she can look to others to fix theirs. So while her attitude may not be the only problem in the marriage, it's the first place she has to examine if she wants to find a solution. Trying to take the sliver from his eye while poking him daily with the beam in her eye isn't exactly going to work, we all know that. We've all met THOSE women who are like nails on chalkboard to be around and you feel sorry for their families. I don't think it's bad advice to tell someone NOT to be that person. Now she may have reason to be bitchy, we don't know, but either way, whether we have reason to be bitchy or not, true virtue and true sanctity means overcoming that and accepting the imperfections and the trials in our lives with joy. It's one thing to fail at that every now and then, which we all do more or less frequently but it's another not to even try. That makes a person unlovable.

Think of Saint Monica. If anyone had a reason to be a jaded witch it would be her. She was stuck in a marriage with a husband  who cheated all the time and a rebellious wayward son both of which looked down upon her Faith and tested it to the max. She would have had all the "reason" in the world to hold that against them. She could have had great venting sessions with the girls and garnered all kinds of sympathy for her situation and evil looks towards her husband and he would have deserved it. But she's a saint because she did not allow herself the luxury of developing negative feelings and attitudes towards them even if it would have felt like the most natural and fairest thing to do.

The reverse would be if a man finds he is not respected by his family, he has to look to himself to be sure he is being respectable.

Also, you're newly in love and engaged. It seems very easy to love your intended through thick and thin right now. But God knows which trials test us to our limits and He doesn't let anyone get off easy. Saying we must love each other through the trials is much more easily said than done, especially if the trials come from within the marriage, directly from each other's shortcomings that either never change or take years to change. The repetition of dealing with the same issue on a daily basis for years (we're human, we dont' change overnight) can get wearing to say the least. That advice may hit you differently once you've been married 10+ years and realize how easy it is to turn on each other or be less than loving or lovable when the chips are down. If it were not difficult and at times impossible, it would not be such a triumph to get through it all together and still love each other in the end.

That's a very long definition of "be lovable."

I think this thread is useless without the original texts in questions.  As it is, both sides are right in interpreting the words of the Bishop.  Given his track record, it would appear one side is more right than others but that isn't necessarily true.
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Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
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