Tornielli: “Peace” agreement reached between Vatican and Lefebvrians
#21
(09-15-2011, 12:40 PM)Gerard Wrote: The SSPX should ask if the "submission of will and intellect" is any different than the formulation of Vatican I in defining the required obedience as "true hierarchichal obedience" which was originally formulated by St. Thomas Aquinas.  

And also, the question is raised, "Is it moral to submit the will and intellect to an exercise of the Magisterium that is fallible?"  Don't you require the intellect to determine if the criteria for infallibility and consequently submission is there?  If not, why bother to have infallibility at all?  You become obligated to respond in a servile way whether it's by the power of the Holy Ghost working through the papacy or the power of the Devil working through the man who happens to be Pope.  

These are excellent questions. 
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#22
(09-15-2011, 01:32 PM)spasiisochrani Wrote:
(09-15-2011, 12:40 PM)Gerard Wrote: The SSPX should ask if the "submission of will and intellect" is any different than the formulation of Vatican I in defining the required obedience as "true hierarchichal obedience" which was originally formulated by St. Thomas Aquinas.  

And also, the question is raised, "Is it moral to submit the will and intellect to an exercise of the Magisterium that is fallible?"  Don't you require the intellect to determine if the criteria for infallibility and consequently submission is there?  If not, why bother to have infallibility at all?  You become obligated to respond in a servile way whether it's by the power of the Holy Ghost working through the papacy or the power of the Devil working through the man who happens to be Pope.  

These are excellent questions. 

Yes.  Here are some questions Archbishop Lefebvre said he would ask Rome, if ever they tried to start up discussions with him again:

Archbishop Lefebvre interview with Fideliter Magazine late 1988 Wrote:Interviewer: ... In your last letter to the Holy Father142 you declared that you were waiting for a more propitious time for the return of Rome to Tradition. What do you think of a possible re-opening of the dialogue with Rome?

Archbishop Lefebvre: We do not have the same outlook on a reconciliation. Cardinal Ratzinger sees it as reducing us, bringing us back to Vatican II. We see it as a return of Rome to Tradition. We don’t agree; it is a dialogue of death. I can’t speak much of the future, mine is behind me, but if I live a little while, supposing that Rome calls for a renewed dialogue, then, I will put conditions. I shall not accept being in the position where I was put during the dialogue. No more.

I will place the discussion at the doctrinal level: “Do you agree with the great encyclicals of all the popes who preceded you? Do you agree with Quanta Cura of Pius IX, Immortale Dei and Libertas of Leo XIII, Pascendi Gregis of Pius X, Quas Primas of Pius XI, Humani Generis of Pius XII? Are you in full communion with these Popes and their teachings? Do you still accept the entire Anti-Modernist Oath? Are you in favor of the social reign of Our Lord Jesus Christ? If you do not accept the doctrine of your predecessors, it is useless to talk! As long as you do not accept the correction of the Council, in consideration of the doctrine of these Popes, your predecessors, no dialogue is possible. It is useless.”

Thus, the positions will be clear.

The stakes are not small. 

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#23
It is truly unbelievable to hear the discordant voices of dissent, the "cacophony of hoots and wails."  Those who have dismissed (or deposed) the pope have done so of their own personal volition.  So far we have forgotten Christ's words, "Behold I am with you all days, even unto the end of the world";  "I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you."  Christ's words the Protestants will not accept.  Despite the way we envision how things are, the Church of Christ has NOT become invisible or has disappeared.  If Peter is not there, then where is Christ?  He lied to us.  This is not another venture into papalotry as some are wont to accuse.  I am not so fond of Peter now or those of recent memory, but the Holy Ghost is still in charge.  He knows what He is doing and we don't have to tell Him what we want Him to do.  That's the height of hypocrisy.

This is a good thing to happen to the SSPX. Didn't we all pray for it?  Hey, the door to the citadel is ajar.  Get your foot in and work things out from the inside.  You can't storm the Church from the outside.  History tells of those who have tried these 21 centuries of the Church's existence attest to that.  Those who tried never made it in, though it seems that it has happened these past 40 years, seeing what the conciliar hijackers have accomplished.  Pope Leo XIII's vision of Satan telling Christ he can destroy the Church and Christ saying to him, Go Ahead, has and is actually happening.  Are we just going to let them have their way?  The SSPX (and nobody else) can turn things around once reintegrated (or assimilated) and bring back Tradition and the authentic Magisterium.  In other words, once inside the citadel, they can start throwing the bums out the door.  The other traditional orders and societies are there to help clean out the mess.

Pax. 
U.I.O.G.D.
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#24
Perhaps the SSPX will be "regularised" just in time to attend Assisi III.

That'll be interesting.
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#25
(09-15-2011, 02:12 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: Perhaps the SSPX will be "regularised" just in time to attend Assisi III.

That'll be interesting.

And denounce it with the harshest voice imaginable.  They are IN -- can't be kicked out anymore. That is the nice thing to do the wrecking of the N.O. from the inside.  I can already picture the mad dash of prelates and clergy rushing out into schism.
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#26
(09-15-2011, 02:20 PM)Vincentius Wrote:
(09-15-2011, 02:12 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: Perhaps the SSPX will be "regularised" just in time to attend Assisi III.

That'll be interesting.

And denounce it with the harshest voice imaginable.  They are IN -- can't be kicked out anymore. That is the nice thing to do the wrecking of the N.O. from the inside.  I can already picture the mad dash of prelates and clergy rushing out into schism.

Right...

What is more worrisome is not whether the SSPX will denounce in the harshest terms Assisi III once they're "in full communion" but the fact that the Vicar of Christ continues to indulge in public acts of apostasy with no noticeable reaction from the faithful, clerics and laity alike.

It's all a sick joke.
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#27
(09-15-2011, 02:12 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: Perhaps the SSPX will be "regularised" just in time to attend Assisi III.

That'll be interesting.
Perhaps at Assisi III the Holy Father will call all to conversion.
We can only pray.
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#28
has anything like this ever happened?
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#29
(09-15-2011, 02:24 PM)dan hunter Wrote:
(09-15-2011, 02:12 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: Perhaps the SSPX will be "regularised" just in time to attend Assisi III.

That'll be interesting.
Perhaps at Assisi III the Holy Father will call all to conversion.
We can only pray.

And after he doesn't?

Make up silly excuses and bury our heads in the sand again.
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#30
(09-15-2011, 02:29 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(09-15-2011, 02:24 PM)dan hunter Wrote: [quote='Vetus Ordo' pid='875214' dateline='1316110377']
Perhaps the SSPX will be "regularised" just in time to attend Assisi III.

That'll be interesting.
Perhaps at Assisi III the Holy Father will call all to conversion.
We can only pray.

And after he doesn't?

Make up silly excuses and bury our heads in the sand again.
[/quote Wow!]Your gross crankiness and lack of joy is appalling.

No we condemn this gathering as non Christian if in fact it is.

Are you half ostrich?
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