Tornielli: “Peace” agreement reached between Vatican and Lefebvrians
i c.
well if you say so.
sip
i have a different take mind you. but i do agree in one respect. the NO being the abominable prod bastard mass it is,  has certainly eaten at peoples faith. it was by design and no accident the loss of faith in its ranks.
yes
sip
how true
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(09-23-2011, 11:29 PM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(09-23-2011, 06:18 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(09-23-2011, 05:43 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: ..

I am not grasping at straws; you simply don't understand the point.

No, it is not a doctrinal definition. But it is the underlying theology of the new liturgy that is being discussed. That theology is not Catholic, yet it was promulgated with the purported authority of the Catholic Church. The Novus Ordo has made the nouvelle theologie its theology. That theology is condemned by the power of God through His Church. Yet you support this novel program (and its liturgy) as being authentically Catholic, despite the fact that it is based upon condemned theology.

Am I grasping at straws or are you not wanting to acknowledge the problem?

I am fairly sure that I understand you are claiming that the underlying theology of the GIRM is not Catholic.  I think you are wrong and that your argument is spurious.

I have made a case, but you simply state that, in your opinion, it is wrong without demonstrating that you are right.

You are making claims about arguments being wrong, but you infrequently back them up. Please do so.

Yes Jayne, please do so.  INPEFESS has shown time and time again just how non-Catholic the theology of the New Mass truly is - it is also not hard to research and see just how much it resembles a previously declared heretical rite.  You just simply cannot seem to grasp the severity of this crisis we are in - it is not all sunshine and daisies as most people want to believe - we are living in the worst crisis of faith the Church has EVER experienced and there is no hiding from this clear fact, no matter how hard you try.  You also cannot seem to grasp that the Church is perpetual, and this perpetual Church has taught us, very clearly, how to recognize error and what to do when we recognize it. 

Modern neo-cons seem to think that it is only the "here and now" that matters, but that is not now nor has ever been how the Church functions.  This attitude stems from what the usurpers wanted to happen - they wanted to use Vatican II as the foundation of a new religion - they wanted Catholics to ignore Tradition because Tradition so clearly condemns their work.  So they exploited the council they themselves infiltrated and did just that - and we have all seen the outcome!  We are a TRADITIONAL Church - the neo-cons either have a hard time seeing just how clearly Tradition blatantly condemns the New Mass and the entire Novus Ordo sentiment, or they simply hide from the facts, trying to somehow rationalize the night and day differences of what passes as "Catholicism" pre and post council.  Like I stated in a previous post:  in times like this blind obedience just won't cut it - we must be courageous, just as the saints of old who faced similar times.
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I don't have time to do a big treatise on this.  I told INPEFESS that would address his points if he would stick to one issue at a time.
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(09-23-2011, 03:44 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(09-23-2011, 03:23 PM)devotedknuckles Wrote: not at all. the very people who unleashed the vile abominable NO said in black and white the motive. then later changed it and tweaked it to hid the fact.
the fruit speaks for themselves. u cant dismiss it. its from the horses mouth. you just deny a horse is horse a mouth a mouth
neat trick
Hope u wake up

I can just imagine you on the Titanic complaining about people moving the deck chairs.  "Look how the ship is sinking!  Obviously moving the deck chairs has caused it!"  Hello? THERE'S AN ICEBERG!!!!  You are the one who needs to wake up and realize that we live in a time of unprecedented social change and most of the problems you attribute to the NO would be happening if we still had the TLM.  

I believe that that TLM is a better Mass but all this nonsense about fruits of the NO is a crock.

You ever stop and think that since the Church is the guiding light of the world that the reason why all of the "social change" in the wrong direction began to occur in the 60's was due to the Church letting her guard down... WAY down?  Wait...when was Vatican II held again?  O yeah, in the 1960's.  That seems odd...

So you honestly think that if Vatican II and the New Mass never happened the Church would still be in this sorry state?
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(09-25-2011, 06:55 PM)Nic Wrote:
(09-23-2011, 03:44 PM)JayneK Wrote: I can just imagine you on the Titanic complaining about people moving the deck chairs.  "Look how the ship is sinking!  Obviously moving the deck chairs has caused it!"  Hello? THERE'S AN ICEBERG!!!!  You are the one who needs to wake up and realize that we live in a time of unprecedented social change and most of the problems you attribute to the NO would be happening if we still had the TLM.  

I believe that that TLM is a better Mass but all this nonsense about fruits of the NO is a crock.

You ever stop and think that since the Church is the guiding light of the world that the reason why all of the "social change" in the wrong direction began to occur in the 60's was due to the Church letting her guard down... WAY down?  Wait...when was Vatican II held again?  O yeah, in the 1960's.  That seems odd...

So you honestly think that if Vatican II and the New Mass never happened the Church would still be in this sorry state?

I don't think it would be quite as bad, since a better liturgy would help to counter some of the problems, but there would still be a crisis.
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(09-25-2011, 07:07 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(09-25-2011, 06:55 PM)Nic Wrote:
(09-23-2011, 03:44 PM)JayneK Wrote: I can just imagine you on the Titanic complaining about people moving the deck chairs.  "Look how the ship is sinking!  Obviously moving the deck chairs has caused it!"  Hello? THERE'S AN ICEBERG!!!!  You are the one who needs to wake up and realize that we live in a time of unprecedented social change and most of the problems you attribute to the NO would be happening if we still had the TLM.  

I believe that that TLM is a better Mass but all this nonsense about fruits of the NO is a crock.

You ever stop and think that since the Church is the guiding light of the world that the reason why all of the "social change" in the wrong direction began to occur in the 60's was due to the Church letting her guard down... WAY down?  Wait...when was Vatican II held again?  O yeah, in the 1960's.  That seems odd...

So you honestly think that if Vatican II and the New Mass never happened the Church would still be in this sorry state?

I don't think it would be quite as bad, since a better liturgy would help to counter some of the problems, but there would still be a crisis.

No way!  It was Vatican II and its errors and ambiguities that allowed all of the problems that the Church is being destroyed by to take place.  Without Vatican II and the New Mass, these problems would simply not exist.  The Latin Mass existed (and still exists) for centuries without the abuses and sacrileges that are allowed and promoted by the New Mass and the idealism behind it.

I believe that the Church is the guiding light of the world.  I believe that in the middle of the 20th century, the infiltrators hiding within the Catholic Church won a great victory with Vatican II.  This is the same era of all of the "social change" of the world.  When I put 1 and 1 together I get 2.  These infiltrators and usurpers actually created a new religion within the official structure of the Church and they use this hierarchial structure to further along this new religion.  They call this religion "Catholicism," but it is not hard at all to see that it is not when you use Tradition as your guide.  This is why the usurpers exclusively use Vatican II to the exclusion of all other councils - this is the beginning of their religion. 

Now, since the official hierarchial structure of the Catholic Church is where the true religion always has been and always will be, it is not hard to figure out all of the confusion of the past 50 years.  In essence, TWO religions now exist within this structure.  This happened once already in the past with the Arian Crisis, which absolutely proves that it can happen again and IS happening again.  Clerics within the official structure of the Church can preach whatever religion they want from their positions of authority.  In times of orthodoxy these clerics would be swiftly dealt with - but when the status quo changes drastically, as it did with Vatican II and the teachings of Arius, they are allowed and even encouraged to preach a different religion.  The only way to fix the problem is to publicly remove the two religions that exist in close proximity to one another - it is this that will end the confusion because then everyone claiming "Catholicism" will be forced to choose a side - they will be forced into picking which "brand" of Catholicism better suits them: the Catholicism of all-time with the Latin Mass as its Ordinary Form, or the "Catholicism" that began with the advent of Vatican II with the New Mass as its Ordinary Form.
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