Another video of Fr. Barron: Good atheists can be saved. Vatican II told us so.
#11
(09-21-2011, 02:28 AM)Someone1776 Wrote:
(09-21-2011, 02:16 AM)mikemac Wrote: If that is in fact a quote by Archbishop Lefebvre that Someone1776 posted.

It's from his famous Open Letter to Confused Catholics.

Oh well, guess he is a manifest heretic. 

http://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/Archbi...ter-10.htm

Thanks for posting that Someone but you missed the main point of Archbishop Lefebvre's Letter.  "But at the cost of what difficulties do people in those countries  where Christianity has not penetrated come to receive baptism by desire!"  It changes the whole idea when you read the whole Letter.  Archbishop Lefebvre finishes off by writing about the prevailing “cultural milieu.”  "I have spoken of the conversions which have abruptly fallen in countries like the United States--where they used to amount to 170,000 a year--and Great Britain and Holland. The missionary spirit has faded away because of the wrong definition of the Church and because of the conciliar declaration on religious liberty of which I must now speak."
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#12
(09-21-2011, 03:47 AM)mikemac Wrote:
(09-21-2011, 02:28 AM)Someone1776 Wrote:
(09-21-2011, 02:16 AM)mikemac Wrote: If that is in fact a quote by Archbishop Lefebvre that Someone1776 posted.

It's from his famous Open Letter to Confused Catholics.

Oh well, guess he is a manifest heretic. 

http://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/Archbi...ter-10.htm

Thanks for posting that Someone but you missed the main point of Archbishop Lefebvre's Letter.  "But at the cost of what difficulties do people in those countries  where Christianity has not penetrated come to receive baptism by desire!"  It changes the whole idea when you read the whole Letter.  Archbishop Lefebvre finishes off by writing about the prevailing “cultural milieu.”  "I have spoken of the conversions which have abruptly fallen in countries like the United States--where they used to amount to 170,000 a year--and Great Britain and Holland. The missionary spirit has faded away because of the wrong definition of the Church and because of the conciliar declaration on religious liberty of which I must now speak."

I agree with everything there.  The archbishop is using some very careful language which we should as well when talking about this topic. 
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#13
(09-21-2011, 01:00 AM)Gerard Wrote: Does anybody know where in Vatican II it states that people outside of the Catholic Church can be saved? 

not sure that is an explicit statement of the council but in terms of inference thereof, my guess would be here:  http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_counc...te_en.html
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#14
This would however put the vast majority of humans who ever lived into Hello or limbo. The problem for me with this is simple. I know a lot of people who are poor, not particularly intelligent, confused by religion, taken in by different arguments because they don't have the intelligence to understand them. And yet they are very Charitable. They are like the Good Samaritan who was neither a Christian or a faithful Jew. So what happened to him? If the Samaritan is burning in Hell now then what was the point of the story?

I also know some Traditionalist Catholics and Novus Ordo types who are very uncharitable, very interested in material possesions and who don't seem to be troubled at the notion that their nice, decent neighbour, policeman, greengrocer, fireman who live morally far better than average lives are going to burn in Hell for all eternity.

That bothers me. For one thing I like these people. And for another I am far from sure how I would love a God whom damned these people to Hell for all eternity. It makes salvation a lottery and pretty much dams every pre-christian society.
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#15
(09-21-2011, 01:00 AM)Gerard Wrote: Does anybody know where in Vatican II it states that people outside of the Catholic Church can be saved? 

You probably won't find a word-for-word denial that outside there is salvation outside the Catholic Church; however, that is the teaching, if this new teaching is understood.

The teaching is that the Catholic Church is merely one component of the "Church of Christ". This Catholic Church, in which the Church of Christ subsists, is the 'concrete historical reality' of the Church of Christ, which, as then-Cardinal Ratzinger said, is a "larger reality than the Catholic Church."

This teaching, he explains, was made possible by, first, the removal of scholasticism, which was too formulaic to address the legimate theological questions of our age, and, second, by the ambiguity of Vatican II. These conciliar texts were "left open", he says, for the purpose of being later expounded upon by supplementary ecumenical texts which would further develop the teachings only hinted at by the Second Vatican Council.

These ecumenical texts then go on to redefine the boundaries of the Church, just as the then-Fr. Ratzinger said they would in the 1960s, and effectively deny that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Instead, they say, the Church of Christ is composed of various different "particular Churches", which don't need to return to the Catholic Church in order to achieve the unity willed by Christ. This, they say, "must replace the idea of conversion, even though conversion retains its meaningfulness for those in conscience motivated to seek it."

Finally, the documents, appealing to the teachings of the Second Vatican Council, say that these "particular Churches" each contributes to the economy of salvation, that those who are in them do not need to convert to the Catholic Church in order to ensure their salvation, and that "non-Catholic Christians are therefore not outside of the one church."

No, it may not be true that the Second Vatican Council itself contains an explicit word-for-word denial of the dogma; nevertheless, according to the principle authors of the documents themselves, they were designed specifically to facilitate "a basic unity of churches that remain Churches, yet become one Church."
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#16
I do hope he and the council are right...but I'll put my faith in Christ and what His Church has always taught [prior to the council].  Woe to me if I believe and say otherwise.
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#17
(09-25-2011, 03:25 AM)ggreg Wrote: This would however put the vast majority of humans who ever lived into Hello or limbo. The problem for me with this is simple. I know a lot of people who are poor, not particularly intelligent, confused by religion, taken in by different arguments because they don't have the intelligence to understand them. And yet they are very Charitable. They are like the Good Samaritan who was neither a Christian or a faithful Jew. So what happened to him? If the Samaritan is burning in Hell now then what was the point of the story?

I also know some Traditionalist Catholics and Novus Ordo types who are very uncharitable, very interested in material possesions and who don't seem to be troubled at the notion that their nice, decent neighbour, policeman, greengrocer, fireman who live morally far better than average lives are going to burn in Hell for all eternity.

That bothers me. For one thing I like these people. And for another I am far from sure how I would love a God whom damned these people to Hell for all eternity. It makes salvation a lottery and pretty much dams every pre-christian society.

No it doesn't dam every pre-christian society.  When talking about baptism by desire Archbishop Lefebvre said "people in those countries where Christianity has not penetrated".  Romans 11:25 says "For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, of this mystery, (lest you should be wise in your own conceits), that blindness in part has happened in Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles should come in."  Obviously that means until the Catholic Faith is brought to all peoples and nations.  As we speak there are not many nations that the Catholic Faith has not been brought to.  Saudi Arabia comes to mind.  There is a flourishing underground Catholic Church in China.

Most Protestants don't know the true history of the Reformation so I tend to agree with you Greg about decent Protestants.  Let's hope so anyways for their sake.  But do Catholic prelates or even a pope have the authority to make this judgement?  It's like in the last 45 years the Vatican has forgotten about their commission to take His Word to all peoples and nations.

Forty five years ago Protestants were outside of the Catholic Church.  I have read a Vatican document by Cardinal Kasper, the former President of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity (and as such, President of the Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews) that said Protestants are part of the Catholic Church whether they realize it or not (probably not in those exact word).  This same document by Cardinal Kasper also said that Jews may have justification without Jesus Christ.  Cardinal Kasper had served as its President from 2001 to 2010.  I know this document was still in the Vatican web site about a year ago.

Dominus Iesus, published on August 6, 2000 states that people outside of Christianity are "in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation", and that non-Catholic Christian communities had "defects."  Cardinal Kasper was critical of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith document Dominus Iesus, which he believed was an offense to the Jewish people.

In Father Paul Kramer's book 'The Devil's Final Battle' he writes about Eastern Orthodox prelates that wanted to convert to Catholicism but were discouraged from doing so by Vatican officials.  Talk about confusing.  ???
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#18
I wouldn't become a Catholic today if I was not one already.  I'd take one look at the Catholic Church and decide it was just not credible enough to be what it claimed to be.
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#19
Christ already settled the matter. We can read thus in Scripture:

"Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!" (Matthew 7:13-14)

Few will be saved. Strive to be one of those few.
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#20
Accepted.  It is hard to read the Gospels and not conclude that few are saved.  Does seem odd though, so many people being damned to Hell. 
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