Possessed Priest and Valid Sacraments
#31
(09-27-2011, 09:24 AM)Melkite Wrote: But the Fathers believed he didn't.  If he doesn't, that means he shows mercy and compassion to the most undeserving, but has neither for the most deserving

unbaptised babies are undeserving as well...

i dont think you quite realize what original sin is...

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#32
(09-27-2011, 11:57 AM)Gorgondie Wrote:
(09-27-2011, 09:24 AM)Melkite Wrote: But the Fathers believed he didn't.  If he doesn't, that means he shows mercy and compassion to the most undeserving, but has neither for the most deserving

unbaptised babies are undeserving as well...

i dont think you quite realize what original sin is...

I realize quite well.  Unbaptized babies are no less deserving of baptism than those lucky enough to receive it.
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#33
Original Sin closes us off from heaven, we must be born twice to enter the Kingdom.  That's it.

I'm not saying God cannot Baptize in the womb, he very well can. We don't know if he does, but I trust the theologians of the Church more than my own emotions on the issue.

Melkite, I'm not anti-eastern mysticism. I'm willing to listen to other opinions if they exist. Are there any eastern theologians that don't view water Baptism as necessary for salvation?
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#34
(09-27-2011, 01:01 PM)K3vinhood Wrote: Original Sin closes us off from heaven, we must be born twice to enter the Kingdom.  That's it.

I'm not saying God cannot Baptize in the womb, he very well can. We don't know if he does, but I trust the theologians of the Church more than my own emotions on the issue.

Melkite, I'm not anti-eastern mysticism. I'm willing to listen to other opinions if they exist. Are there any eastern theologians that don't view water Baptism as necessary for salvation?

I don't know.  I think in the East it was also the common opinion that unbaptized babies couldn't go to heaven.  But I gave you a very rational reason why we shouldn't think that.  What did you think of that?
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#35
(09-27-2011, 02:29 AM)K3vinhood Wrote:
(09-27-2011, 02:23 AM)Mithrandylan Wrote: Kevin, then what makes you think He was kidding in the other thread where He says that sins against the Holy Ghost cannot be forgiven? 

When do we decide when God is kidding or not?

The quote was expanded upon in that thread, no saint that I know of has ever said there are sins which one can commit, seek true forgiveness for, and be denied forgiveness. Church teaching clearly says one can be forgiven of any sin he is sorry for. Let's keep that discussion in that thread, but Christ certainly wasn't kidding around there either.

Baptism is required for salvation according to Christ himself, if there's any evidence to the contrary then it can be debated, but I certainly don't see anything anywhere which allows for the unbaptized to enter heaven.

Once again:
St. Augustine (On the Soul, Book III) Wrote:If you wish to be a Catholic, do not believe, nor say, nor teach, that infants who die before baptism can obtain the remission of original sin.

I'll move this to the other tread.
More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
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#36
(09-27-2011, 03:58 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(09-27-2011, 01:01 PM)K3vinhood Wrote: Original Sin closes us off from heaven, we must be born twice to enter the Kingdom.  That's it.

I'm not saying God cannot Baptize in the womb, he very well can. We don't know if he does, but I trust the theologians of the Church more than my own emotions on the issue.

Melkite, I'm not anti-eastern mysticism. I'm willing to listen to other opinions if they exist. Are there any eastern theologians that don't view water Baptism as necessary for salvation?

I don't know.  I think in the East it was also the common opinion that unbaptized babies couldn't go to heaven.  But I gave you a very rational reason why we shouldn't think that.  What did you think of that?

I trust the Church and her Fathers more then my feelings. Your explanation is based on feelings, you don't want to see little innocents in limbo, and I can't blame you, who does? This should make us hate abortion even more then we do now, if that's possible.

God may give them Baptismal graces, I have no idea. But the theologians (East and West) know a lot more than you and I do. I would assume they are right, especially if they have a unanimous opinion.

But to say this teaching makes you consider going to the EOC, what will that solve?

If the Eastern (pre and post-schism) theologians feel the same way then you're going to have to accept their views on this as well.
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#37
(09-27-2011, 04:54 PM)K3vinhood Wrote:
(09-27-2011, 03:58 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(09-27-2011, 01:01 PM)K3vinhood Wrote: Original Sin closes us off from heaven, we must be born twice to enter the Kingdom.  That's it.

I'm not saying God cannot Baptize in the womb, he very well can. We don't know if he does, but I trust the theologians of the Church more than my own emotions on the issue.

Melkite, I'm not anti-eastern mysticism. I'm willing to listen to other opinions if they exist. Are there any eastern theologians that don't view water Baptism as necessary for salvation?

I don't know.  I think in the East it was also the common opinion that unbaptized babies couldn't go to heaven.  But I gave you a very rational reason why we shouldn't think that.  What did you think of that?

I trust the Church and her Fathers more then my feelings. Your explanation is based on feelings, you don't want to see little innocents in limbo, and I can't blame you, who does? This should make us hate abortion even more then we do now, if that's possible.

God may give them Baptismal graces, I have no idea. But the theologians (East and West) know a lot more than you and I do. I would assume they are right, especially if they have a unanimous opinion.

But to say this teaching makes you consider going to the EOC, what will that solve?

If the Eastern (pre and post-schism) theologians feel the same way then you're going to have to accept their views on this as well.

No, it wasn't based on feelings, it was based on reason.  If God is immutable, and we know he goes to extraordinary measures to save us, then he must also go to extraordinary measures to save those unbaptized who never had a chance to be baptized.  That's reason based, not emotions based.  The EOC place a much heavier emphasis on the Fathers than does the Latin Church, so there must be Fathers who believed the way I'm saying, I just don't have any quotes on hand because I'm not omniscient.
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#38
(09-27-2011, 09:27 PM)Melkite Wrote: No, it wasn't based on feelings, it was based on reason.  If God is immutable, and we know he goes to extraordinary measures to save us, then he must also go to extraordinary measures to save those unbaptized who never had a chance to be baptized

Must? How so?

Quote:The EOC place a much heavier emphasis on the Fathers than does the Latin Church, so there must be Fathers who believed the way I'm saying, I just don't have any quotes on hand because I'm not omniscient.

I don't think there were any Eastern fathers that agreed with you.
Quote:We imitate Christ’s death by being buried with him in baptism. If we ask what this kind of burial means and what benefit we may hope to derive from it, it means first of all making a complete break with our former way of life, and our Lord himself said that this cannot be done unless a man is born again. In other words, we have to begin a new life, and we cannot do so until our previous life has been brought to an end.
-St. Basil the Great

It behooves those to be baptized . . . so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God . . . because it is written "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (Epistles 72 [73]: 21)
-St. Cyprian

That the need of water is absolute and indispensable, you may learn in this way. On one occasion, when the Spirit had flown down before the water was applied, the Apostle did not stay at this point, but, as though the water were necessary and not superfluous, observe what he says; Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? (Acts 10:47)
-St. John Chrysostom

The only exception there seems to be with the Eastern fathers is martyrdom.
Quote:Besides the baptisms associated with Moses, John, and Jesus] I know also a fourth baptism, that by martyrdom and blood, by which also Christ himself was baptized. This one is far more august than the others, since it cannot be defiled by later sins.
-St. Gregory of Nazianzus

Do not be surprised that I call martyrdom a baptism, for here too the Spirit comes in great haste and there is the taking away of sins and a wonderful and marvelous cleansing of the soul, and just as those being baptized are washed in water, so too those being martyred are washed in their own blood
-St. John Chrysostom

If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who even without water will receive the kingdom.
. . . For the Savior calls martyrdom a baptism, saying, ‘Can you drink the cup which I drink and be baptized with the baptism with which I am to be baptized [Mark 10:38]?’ Indeed, the martyrs too confess, by being made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men [1 Cor. 4:9]
-St. Cyril of Jerusalem
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#39
(09-27-2011, 09:27 PM)Melkite Wrote: No, it wasn't based on feelings, it was based on reason.  If God is immutable, and we know he goes to extraordinary measures to save us, then he must also go to extraordinary measures to save those unbaptized who never had a chance to be baptized.  That's reason based, not emotions based.

The only extraordinary measure God went to in order to redeem mankind was the sacrificial death of his Son on the cross whose blood "cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7) Indeed, divine revelation clearly teaches that "all have sinned, and do need the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) including infants and newborns. St. Paul stresses again the evangelical truth that all are condemned and that redemption comes only by faith in Christ when he says "the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise, by the faith of Jesus Christ, might be given to them that believe." (Galatians 3:22)

In order to be delivered from death, any man must repent of his sins, believe the Gospel and be baptized, according to Christ's infallible word: "Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5), "The time is accomplished, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent, and believe the gospel." (Mark 1:15) and again "He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned." (Mark 16:16)

As you should know, God is under no obligation to save anyone. "O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it: Why hast thou made me thus? Or hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction, that he might shew the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he hath prepared unto glory?" (Romans 9:20-23)

Quote:The EOC place a much heavier emphasis on the Fathers than does the Latin Church

:shrug:
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#40
(09-27-2011, 09:48 PM)K3vinhood Wrote:
(09-27-2011, 09:27 PM)Melkite Wrote: No, it wasn't based on feelings, it was based on reason.  If God is immutable, and we know he goes to extraordinary measures to save us, then he must also go to extraordinary measures to save those unbaptized who never had a chance to be baptized

Must? How so?

Quote:The EOC place a much heavier emphasis on the Fathers than does the Latin Church, so there must be Fathers who believed the way I'm saying, I just don't have any quotes on hand because I'm not omniscient.

I don't think there were any Eastern fathers that agreed with you.
Quote:We imitate Christ’s death by being buried with him in baptism. If we ask what this kind of burial means and what benefit we may hope to derive from it, it means first of all making a complete break with our former way of life, and our Lord himself said that this cannot be done unless a man is born again. In other words, we have to begin a new life, and we cannot do so until our previous life has been brought to an end.
-St. Basil the Great

It behooves those to be baptized . . . so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God . . . because it is written "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (Epistles 72 [73]: 21)
-St. Cyprian

That the need of water is absolute and indispensable, you may learn in this way. On one occasion, when the Spirit had flown down before the water was applied, the Apostle did not stay at this point, but, as though the water were necessary and not superfluous, observe what he says; Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? (Acts 10:47)
-St. John Chrysostom

The only exception there seems to be with the Eastern fathers is martyrdom.
Quote:Besides the baptisms associated with Moses, John, and Jesus] I know also a fourth baptism, that by martyrdom and blood, by which also Christ himself was baptized. This one is far more august than the others, since it cannot be defiled by later sins.
-St. Gregory of Nazianzus

Do not be surprised that I call martyrdom a baptism, for here too the Spirit comes in great haste and there is the taking away of sins and a wonderful and marvelous cleansing of the soul, and just as those being baptized are washed in water, so too those being martyred are washed in their own blood
-St. John Chrysostom

If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who even without water will receive the kingdom.
. . . For the Savior calls martyrdom a baptism, saying, ‘Can you drink the cup which I drink and be baptized with the baptism with which I am to be baptized [Mark 10:38]?’ Indeed, the martyrs too confess, by being made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men [1 Cor. 4:9]
-St. Cyril of Jerusalem

Ok, so then the Eastern Fathers believe martyrdom was sufficient, even though there was no baptism.  Also, not to nitpick, St. Cyprian wasn't an Eastern father.  But, most importantly, as to your first question, He must if he is immutable.  He doesn't have to, but then he is mutable.
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