Possessed Priest and Valid Sacraments
#40
(09-27-2011, 09:48 PM)K3vinhood Wrote:
(09-27-2011, 09:27 PM)Melkite Wrote: No, it wasn't based on feelings, it was based on reason.  If God is immutable, and we know he goes to extraordinary measures to save us, then he must also go to extraordinary measures to save those unbaptized who never had a chance to be baptized

Must? How so?

Quote:The EOC place a much heavier emphasis on the Fathers than does the Latin Church, so there must be Fathers who believed the way I'm saying, I just don't have any quotes on hand because I'm not omniscient.

I don't think there were any Eastern fathers that agreed with you.
Quote:We imitate Christ’s death by being buried with him in baptism. If we ask what this kind of burial means and what benefit we may hope to derive from it, it means first of all making a complete break with our former way of life, and our Lord himself said that this cannot be done unless a man is born again. In other words, we have to begin a new life, and we cannot do so until our previous life has been brought to an end.
-St. Basil the Great

It behooves those to be baptized . . . so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God . . . because it is written "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (Epistles 72 [73]: 21)
-St. Cyprian

That the need of water is absolute and indispensable, you may learn in this way. On one occasion, when the Spirit had flown down before the water was applied, the Apostle did not stay at this point, but, as though the water were necessary and not superfluous, observe what he says; Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? (Acts 10:47)
-St. John Chrysostom

The only exception there seems to be with the Eastern fathers is martyrdom.
Quote:Besides the baptisms associated with Moses, John, and Jesus] I know also a fourth baptism, that by martyrdom and blood, by which also Christ himself was baptized. This one is far more august than the others, since it cannot be defiled by later sins.
-St. Gregory of Nazianzus

Do not be surprised that I call martyrdom a baptism, for here too the Spirit comes in great haste and there is the taking away of sins and a wonderful and marvelous cleansing of the soul, and just as those being baptized are washed in water, so too those being martyred are washed in their own blood
-St. John Chrysostom

If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who even without water will receive the kingdom.
. . . For the Savior calls martyrdom a baptism, saying, ‘Can you drink the cup which I drink and be baptized with the baptism with which I am to be baptized [Mark 10:38]?’ Indeed, the martyrs too confess, by being made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men [1 Cor. 4:9]
-St. Cyril of Jerusalem

Ok, so then the Eastern Fathers believe martyrdom was sufficient, even though there was no baptism.  Also, not to nitpick, St. Cyprian wasn't an Eastern father.  But, most importantly, as to your first question, He must if he is immutable.  He doesn't have to, but then he is mutable.
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Messages In This Thread
Possessed Priest and Valid Sacraments - by Jesse - 09-24-2011, 02:57 PM
Re: Possessed Priest and Valid Sacraments - by Melkite - 09-27-2011, 09:59 PM



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