Does the Pope possess Power to Depose Rulers and Absolve Subjects of Allegiance?
(10-06-2011, 09:27 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote:
(10-06-2011, 08:06 PM)Silouan Wrote:
(10-06-2011, 12:02 AM)Walty Wrote: No, my proof is the Catholic faith.
Do you have anything to back that up?

Exhibit A: Pope Leo XIII, Annum Sacrum, 25 May 1899: "His empire includes not only Catholic nations, not only baptized persons who, though of right belonging to the Church, have been led astray by error, or have been cut off from her by schism, but also all those who are outside the Christian faith; so that truly the whole of mankind is subject to the power of Jesus Christ."

Exhibit B: Pope Pius XI, Quas Primas, 11 December 1925: "It would be a grave error, on the other hand, to say that Christ has no authority whatever in civil affairs, since, by virtue of the absolute empire over all creatures committed to him by the Father, all things are in his power. ... Thus the empire of our Redeemer embraces all men."

These quotes have nothing to do with the supposed universal power of the Pope in temporal matters but with the empire of Christ. Indeed, there are no limits to God's authority and there's no human activity, including politics, that can be safely alienated from the moral principles of religion. But then again, no-one disputes that.
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(10-06-2011, 10:31 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(10-06-2011, 09:27 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote:
(10-06-2011, 08:06 PM)Silouan Wrote:
(10-06-2011, 12:02 AM)Walty Wrote: No, my proof is the Catholic faith.
Do you have anything to back that up?

Exhibit A: Pope Leo XIII, Annum Sacrum, 25 May 1899: "His empire includes not only Catholic nations, not only baptized persons who, though of right belonging to the Church, have been led astray by error, or have been cut off from her by schism, but also all those who are outside the Christian faith; so that truly the whole of mankind is subject to the power of Jesus Christ."

Exhibit B: Pope Pius XI, Quas Primas, 11 December 1925: "It would be a grave error, on the other hand, to say that Christ has no authority whatever in civil affairs, since, by virtue of the absolute empire over all creatures committed to him by the Father, all things are in his power. ... Thus the empire of our Redeemer embraces all men."

These quotes have nothing to do with the supposed universal power of the Pope in temporal matters but with the empire of Christ. Indeed, there are no limits to God's authority and there's no human activity, including politics, that can be safely alienated from the moral principles of religion. But then again, no-one disputes that.

My post was in support of Walty's statement in Reply #87.

As for your point, I will have to go and take a look at my sources for a more accurate understanding of the pope's -- and thus the Church's -- temporal power.
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(10-06-2011, 09:27 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote:
(10-06-2011, 08:06 PM)Silouan Wrote:
(10-06-2011, 12:02 AM)Walty Wrote: No, my proof is the Catholic faith.
Do you have anything to back that up?

Exhibit A: Pope Leo XIII, Annum Sacrum, 25 May 1899: "His empire includes not only Catholic nations, not only baptized persons who, though of right belonging to the Church, have been led astray by error, or have been cut off from her by schism, but also all those who are outside the Christian faith; so that truly the whole of mankind is subject to the power of Jesus Christ."

Exhibit B: Pope Pius XI, Quas Primas, 11 December 1925: "It would be a grave error, on the other hand, to say that Christ has no authority whatever in civil affairs, since, by virtue of the absolute empire over all creatures committed to him by the Father, all things are in his power. ... Thus the empire of our Redeemer embraces all men."

Ironic that the empire of our Redeemer has absolute power, even over the unbaptized, yet has no power to save those who die unbaptized.
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(10-06-2011, 11:06 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(10-06-2011, 09:27 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote:
(10-06-2011, 08:06 PM)Silouan Wrote:
(10-06-2011, 12:02 AM)Walty Wrote: No, my proof is the Catholic faith.
Do you have anything to back that up?

Exhibit A: Pope Leo XIII, Annum Sacrum, 25 May 1899: "His empire includes not only Catholic nations, not only baptized persons who, though of right belonging to the Church, have been led astray by error, or have been cut off from her by schism, but also all those who are outside the Christian faith; so that truly the whole of mankind is subject to the power of Jesus Christ."

Exhibit B: Pope Pius XI, Quas Primas, 11 December 1925: "It would be a grave error, on the other hand, to say that Christ has no authority whatever in civil affairs, since, by virtue of the absolute empire over all creatures committed to him by the Father, all things are in his power. ... Thus the empire of our Redeemer embraces all men."

Ironic that the empire of our Redeemer has absolute power, even over the unbaptized, yet has no power to save those who die unbaptized.


Now you've done it.
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(10-06-2011, 11:06 PM)Melkite Wrote: Ironic that the empire of our Redeemer has absolute power, even over the unbaptized, yet has no power to save those who die unbaptized.

The Church has never taught that the unbaptized perish because Our Lord does not have the power to save them.

So I don't know what you're talking about . . .
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(10-06-2011, 11:06 PM)Melkite Wrote: Ironic that the empire of our Redeemer has absolute power, even over the unbaptized, yet has no power to save those who die unbaptized.

Don't be ridiculous.
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It's fine if you're Orthodox, but it's not really worth your time to try to win converts here.
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(10-07-2011, 12:03 AM)Walty Wrote: It's fine if you're Orthodox, but it's not really worth your time to try to win converts here.

It's quite ironic how those who proclaim themselves "orthodox" explicitly believe against the words of our Lord in John 3:5.

No unbaptised soul can enter the kingdom of heaven.
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(10-07-2011, 11:45 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(10-07-2011, 12:03 AM)Walty Wrote: It's fine if you're Orthodox, but it's not really worth your time to try to win converts here.

It's quite ironic how those who proclaim themselves "orthodox" explicitly believe against the words of our Lord in John 3:5.

No unbaptised soul can enter the kingdom of heaven.


But yet somehow the thief is in paradise with Christ.  :shrug:


Divine irony perhaps?
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(10-07-2011, 11:55 AM)Silouan Wrote:
(10-07-2011, 11:45 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(10-07-2011, 12:03 AM)Walty Wrote: It's fine if you're Orthodox, but it's not really worth your time to try to win converts here.

It's quite ironic how those who proclaim themselves "orthodox" explicitly believe against the words of our Lord in John 3:5.

No unbaptised soul can enter the kingdom of heaven.

But yet somehow the thief is in paradise with Christ.  :shrug:

Divine irony perhaps?

How ingenious of you.

"Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43)

When Christ died He did not ascend into Heaven immediately but descended into hell or hades, id est, the limbo of the Fathers, to preach and sanctify those elect souls who had died before His coming. Christ did not ascend into Heaven but until the Ascension. This much is clear from scripture (John 20:17, etc.) and from the creeds. The thief in the cross obviously did not went to Heaven immediately. That passage must be interpreted clearly as the promise and assurance of salvation to the penitent thief but not without sanctification and baptism first even if by extraordinary means.

The thief descended into hades with Christ and there, along with all the other just, was preached to and baptised. There's no way you can argue that unbaptised souls are saved. That's against revelation.
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