Does the Pope possess Power to Depose Rulers and Absolve Subjects of Allegiance?
#31
(10-03-2011, 12:50 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(10-02-2011, 05:23 PM)jordanawef Wrote: If the Pope says he has the right to remove allegience from a queen, then, I am going to trust and stand with the Pope, as opposed to the queen or anyone else.

Wow! Good for you! I'm so glad you're so much better a Catholic than the Sainted English Martyrs like St Edmund Campion, who went to their deaths protesting their loyalty to their Queen despite the Papal Bull.

Both sides have their saintly supporters, so that argument isn't going to go very far. Edmund Campion may have sided with you, but jordanawef has Pius the Great on his side
Reply
#32
(10-03-2011, 02:01 AM)Resurrexi Wrote:
(10-03-2011, 12:50 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(10-02-2011, 05:23 PM)jordanawef Wrote: If the Pope says he has the right to remove allegience from a queen, then, I am going to trust and stand with the Pope, as opposed to the queen or anyone else.

Wow! Good for you! I'm so glad you're so much better a Catholic than the Sainted English Martyrs like St Edmund Campion, who went to their deaths protesting their loyalty to their Queen despite the Papal Bull.

Both sides have their saintly supporters, so that argument isn't going to go very far. Edmund Campion may have sided with you, but jordanawef has Pius the Great on his side

Yes, but how does one balance one Sainted Pope against the 342 English Martyrs (that so far have been beatified or canonised, there are still more) who went to their deaths for the Faith protesting their loyalty to their Monarch and yet were raised to the honours of the Altar, despite their disobedience to a Solemn Papal Bull?
Reply
#33
(10-03-2011, 02:26 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(10-03-2011, 02:01 AM)Resurrexi Wrote:
(10-03-2011, 12:50 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(10-02-2011, 05:23 PM)jordanawef Wrote: If the Pope says he has the right to remove allegience from a queen, then, I am going to trust and stand with the Pope, as opposed to the queen or anyone else.

Wow! Good for you! I'm so glad you're so much better a Catholic than the Sainted English Martyrs like St Edmund Campion, who went to their deaths protesting their loyalty to their Queen despite the Papal Bull.

Both sides have their saintly supporters, so that argument isn't going to go very far. Edmund Campion may have sided with you, but jordanawef has Pius the Great on his side

Yes, but how does one balance one Sainted Pope against the 342 English Martyrs (that so far have been beatified or canonised, there are still more) who went to their deaths for the Faith protesting their loyalty to their Monarch and yet were raised to the honours of the Altar, despite their disobedience to a Solemn Papal Bull?

My point was actually that arguing from the basis of numbers is rather ridiculous.

You may have a lot of saints on your side, but there were surely saints who disagreed with you. It matters very little whether one side had more saints than the other, since the truth of a statement is not dependent upon how many people hold it.
Reply
#34
(10-03-2011, 02:32 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: My point was actually that arguing from the basis of numbers is rather ridiculous.

You may have a lot of saints on your side, but there were surely saints who disagreed with you. It matters very little whether one side had more saints than the other, since the truth of a statement is not dependent upon how many people hold it.

Point taken. Let me ask a question then. How did these 342 Saints and Beati get raised to the honours of the altar if they were disobedient Catholics who refused to recognise that the Pope had the power to order them to forswear their allegiance to their Monarch and refused to do so after being so ordered?
Reply
#35
And, as an aside, for those who maintain the Pope's absolute power in temporal affairs, I have a question. Do you support Pope Leo XIII's interference in French politics which led to the destruction of a coherent Catholic party, the passing of stringent anti-clerical laws, the loss of State subsidies for the Church, the expulsion of most monastic orders and all contemplative orders, and the confiscation of all Church property?

See, that's the problem I had. I used to believe in St Pius V's actions against Elizabeth I on the grounds he had the power, but I opposed Leo XIII on the French question. Someone pointed out the inconsistency and I decided to go with the side that made the most sense. In both cases, the policy was devastating to the Church. St Pius gave ammunition to the prots who claimed, against all evidence, that all Catholics were prima facie traitors, for which crime the vast majority were executed and Pope Leo destroyed Catholicism in France as a political force. If God did, indeed, give the Pope such power, I think He would have arranged it so it worked for the good of the Church once in awhile
Reply
#36
In concrete, practical matters, especially relating to your example of England, imposing Papal imperium at the cost of bloodshed of innocence is pragmatically morally unacceptable, and neither do I approve or accept as justified such tragedy.

Papalist beata persecutio (loving persecution, or loving punitive correction) is illicit if necessity of destruction of innocent souls follows therefrom, is what I believe. I believe, deontologically, harm to innocence in whatever way, shape or form is unjustifiable completely.

Theoretically, I still hold to my papalo-monarchic theopolitics, however.

I see no other solution to the mystery of evil... But neither is my ideology one of pseudo-messianism. I hope for an "Angelic Pope", as that is the Ideal solution to the presence of Evil in this world, but only hope, not dogmatize heretically...
Reply
#37
(10-01-2011, 06:42 AM)Melkite Wrote:
(10-01-2011, 04:25 AM)Sabbathiel Wrote: According to the Dictatus Papae of Pope St. Gregory VII, yes he does. Fully and totally and unquestionably.

Where has this Pontifical Right gone nowadays? Anyone know?

The Pope has no secular power or authority.  If he ever believed he had such power, he was overstretching his authority, definitely.

Spoken as a true Easterner.
Reply
#38
(10-03-2011, 07:14 PM)Walty Wrote:
(10-01-2011, 06:42 AM)Melkite Wrote:
(10-01-2011, 04:25 AM)Sabbathiel Wrote: According to the Dictatus Papae of Pope St. Gregory VII, yes he does. Fully and totally and unquestionably.

Where has this Pontifical Right gone nowadays? Anyone know?

The Pope has no secular power or authority.  If he ever believed he had such power, he was overstretching his authority, definitely.

Spoken as a true Easterner.

Not to be contrarian, but can you prove otherwise?
More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
Reply
#39
(10-03-2011, 08:12 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
(10-03-2011, 07:14 PM)Walty Wrote:
(10-01-2011, 06:42 AM)Melkite Wrote:
(10-01-2011, 04:25 AM)Sabbathiel Wrote: According to the Dictatus Papae of Pope St. Gregory VII, yes he does. Fully and totally and unquestionably.

Where has this Pontifical Right gone nowadays? Anyone know?

The Pope has no secular power or authority.  If he ever believed he had such power, he was overstretching his authority, definitely.

Spoken as a true Easterner.

Not to be contrarian, but can you prove otherwise?

That the Pope should have power over secular authority? 

I present Europe before the Reformation.
Reply
#40
(10-03-2011, 07:14 PM)Walty Wrote:
(10-01-2011, 06:42 AM)Melkite Wrote:
(10-01-2011, 04:25 AM)Sabbathiel Wrote: According to the Dictatus Papae of Pope St. Gregory VII, yes he does. Fully and totally and unquestionably.

Where has this Pontifical Right gone nowadays? Anyone know?

The Pope has no secular power or authority.  If he ever believed he had such power, he was overstretching his authority, definitely.

Spoken as a true Easterner.

Um, is that supposed to be an argument to the contrary?
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)