Does the Pope possess Power to Depose Rulers and Absolve Subjects of Allegiance?
#41
(10-03-2011, 08:17 PM)Walty Wrote: That the Pope should have power over secular authority? 

I present Europe before the Reformation.

Is that an argument against the Pope having power over secular authority?
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#42
(10-03-2011, 08:17 PM)Walty Wrote:
(10-03-2011, 08:12 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
(10-03-2011, 07:14 PM)Walty Wrote:
(10-01-2011, 06:42 AM)Melkite Wrote:
(10-01-2011, 04:25 AM)Sabbathiel Wrote: According to the Dictatus Papae of Pope St. Gregory VII, yes he does. Fully and totally and unquestionably.

Where has this Pontifical Right gone nowadays? Anyone know?

The Pope has no secular power or authority.  If he ever believed he had such power, he was overstretching his authority, definitely.

Spoken as a true Easterner.

Not to be contrarian, but can you prove otherwise?

That the Pope should have power over secular authority? 

I present Europe before the Reformation.

Melkite didn't say the pope shouldn't, he said he doesn't.

So we're not talking shoulds coulds or woulds, we're talking what is.  Which is why I was taken aback by your comment, because in context with his it seemed that you had some evidence that supported the pope as being a person of authority in a secular sense.
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Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
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#43
(10-03-2011, 02:36 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(10-03-2011, 02:32 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: My point was actually that arguing from the basis of numbers is rather ridiculous.

You may have a lot of saints on your side, but there were surely saints who disagreed with you. It matters very little whether one side had more saints than the other, since the truth of a statement is not dependent upon how many people hold it.

Point taken. Let me ask a question then. How did these 342 Saints and Beati get raised to the honours of the altar if they were disobedient Catholics who refused to recognise that the Pope had the power to order them to forswear their allegiance to their Monarch and refused to do so after being so ordered?

They could have just been genuinely mistaken. Nobody is going to pretend that St. Vincent Ferrer was on the correct side of the Western Schism, but he's a saint nonetheless.
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#44
(10-03-2011, 10:51 PM)Resurrexi Wrote: They could have just been genuinely mistaken. Nobody is going to pretend that St. Vincent Ferrer was on the correct side of the Western Schism, but he's a saint nonetheless.

Apples and oranges. Being mistaken (or confused) during the Great Schism is one thing. Blatant disobedience of a Papal Bull when there is no dispute over who is Pope is an entirely different thing.
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#45
There are essentially two schools of thought when it comes to the Church's temporal jurisdiction: the theory of direct power and the theory of indirect power.

Personally, I side with the latter.

[quote='Catholic Encyclopedia']
Theory of Direct Power

One school, which comprised such men as John of Salisbury and his friend St. Thomas Becket, maintained that the pope had direct power over temporal as over spiritual matters. All power was given to Jesus Christ, the King of kings and Lord of lords, and he made over the plenitude of the power which He had received to His vicars, the Roman pontiffs. Consequently the popes are the supreme rulers of the world in both spiritual and temporal matters, they keep the spiritual power in their own hands, while they delegate the temporal to emperors and kings. These, therefore, are directly responsible for their acts to the pope in whose name they govern. It is possible to quote expressions from papal documents which seem to support this opinion. Gregory VII, Innocent III, and other popes, used phrases which are capable of being interpreted in that sense; but if the scope of these documents be considered, and especially if the teaching of these popes on other occasions be taken into account, they must be explained in another way. Thus Innocent III, writing to the Patriarch of Constantinople, says that "not only the Church universal but the whole world was left to Peter to govern," But his aim is to show the universality of the pope's spiritual jurisdiction in contrast to that exercised over particular churches by other spiritual rulers. In his celebrated Decretal "Novit," Innocent III defends himself from the imputation of desiring to usurp or curtail the jurisdiction or power of the King of France: "Why", he asks, "should we desire to usurp the jurisdiction of another, while we are not competent to wield our own?" He explains that he had summoned the French king before his spiritual tribunal to answer for a sin, a matter which belonged to the ecclesiastical court. Similarly, in his Decretal "Per venerabilem", the same great pope says that he is well aware that Christ said "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's", but that, notwithstanding, in certain causes the pope exercises temporal jurisdiction casually and incidentally.

Theory of Indirect Power

Hence there was another opinion defended by Hugo of St. Victor, Alexander of Hales, and others, according to which the power granted by Christ to the Church and to the pope was spiritual, and had reference only to religion and the salvation of souls. The Church had no merely temporal jurisdiction of Divine right; Christian emperors and kings were supreme within the limits of their temporal authority. However, in as much as all must give way when there is question of the salvation of souls, "For what doth it profit a man if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his soul?" and, "If thy right eye scandalize thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee"; so all impediments to salvation must be removed. He, therefore, who has the care of the salvation of soul should have the power to remove any impediment to salvation, even if it be caused by a Christian emperor or kings. Besides, Christian emperors and kings are children of the Church, and as such subject to the supreme rulers of the Church. The first Christian
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#46
(10-03-2011, 09:25 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(10-03-2011, 08:17 PM)Walty Wrote: That the Pope should have power over secular authority? 

I present Europe before the Reformation.

Is that an argument against the Pope having power over secular authority?

No.
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#47
(10-04-2011, 01:12 AM)Walty Wrote:
(10-03-2011, 09:25 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(10-03-2011, 08:17 PM)Walty Wrote: That the Pope should have power over secular authority? 

I present Europe before the Reformation.

Is that an argument against the Pope having power over secular authority?

No.

I'm not sure I'm following you here, Walty.
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#48
(10-04-2011, 10:33 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(10-04-2011, 01:12 AM)Walty Wrote:
(10-03-2011, 09:25 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(10-03-2011, 08:17 PM)Walty Wrote: That the Pope should have power over secular authority? 

I present Europe before the Reformation.

Is that an argument against the Pope having power over secular authority?

No.

I'm not sure I'm following you here, Walty.

The Holy Father should have influence over secular authority.  That's my ultramontanist stance.
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#49
(10-05-2011, 07:28 AM)Walty Wrote: The Holy Father should have influence over secular authority.  That's my ultramontanist stance.

Influence in what way?
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#50
(10-05-2011, 09:53 AM)cgraye Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 07:28 AM)Walty Wrote: The Holy Father should have influence over secular authority.  That's my ultramontanist stance.

Influence in what way?

In this way! 
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Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
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