Does the Pope possess Power to Depose Rulers and Absolve Subjects of Allegiance?
#51
(10-05-2011, 09:53 AM)cgraye Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 07:28 AM)Walty Wrote: The Holy Father should have influence over secular authority.  That's my ultramontanist stance.

Influence in what way?

The Holy Father should allow nation states self-governance and independent standing armies, but these secular governments should ultimately answer to him. If, for some extreme reason, he wishes to condemn or request a particular action from that government then they should be obliged under penalty of excommunication and possibly physical force to obey.
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#52
(10-05-2011, 12:19 PM)Walty Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 09:53 AM)cgraye Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 07:28 AM)Walty Wrote: The Holy Father should have influence over secular authority.  That's my ultramontanist stance.

Influence in what way?

The Holy Father should allow nation states self-governance and independent standing armies, but these secular governments should ultimately answer to him. If, for some extreme reason, he wishes to condemn or request a particular action from that government then they should be obliged under penalty of excommunication and possibly physical force to obey.

But this presupposes that nation states and their governments derive their authority from the Pope and not directly from God.

That isn't the case.
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#53
(10-05-2011, 12:19 PM)Walty Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 09:53 AM)cgraye Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 07:28 AM)Walty Wrote: The Holy Father should have influence over secular authority.  That's my ultramontanist stance.

Influence in what way?

The Holy Father should allow nation states self-governance and independent standing armies, but these secular governments should ultimately answer to him. If, for some extreme reason, he wishes to condemn or request a particular action from that government then they should be obliged under penalty of excommunication and possibly physical force to obey.


Wow you guys are a hoot!
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#54
(10-05-2011, 12:19 PM)Walty Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 09:53 AM)cgraye Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 07:28 AM)Walty Wrote: The Holy Father should have influence over secular authority.  That's my ultramontanist stance.

Influence in what way?

The Holy Father should allow nation states self-governance and independent standing armies, but these secular governments should ultimately answer to him. If, for some extreme reason, he wishes to condemn or request a particular action from that government then they should be obliged under penalty of excommunication and possibly physical force to obey.

I love it.  I love it, I love it, I love it!
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#55
(10-05-2011, 12:46 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 12:19 PM)Walty Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 09:53 AM)cgraye Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 07:28 AM)Walty Wrote: The Holy Father should have influence over secular authority.  That's my ultramontanist stance.

Influence in what way?

The Holy Father should allow nation states self-governance and independent standing armies, but these secular governments should ultimately answer to him. If, for some extreme reason, he wishes to condemn or request a particular action from that government then they should be obliged under penalty of excommunication and possibly physical force to obey.

But this presupposes that nation states and their governments derive their authority from the Pope and not directly from God.

But the state does not derive its authority directly from God--it derives it indirectly from Him through the consent of the governed.
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#56
(10-05-2011, 01:04 PM)Resurrexi Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 12:46 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 12:19 PM)Walty Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 09:53 AM)cgraye Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 07:28 AM)Walty Wrote: The Holy Father should have influence over secular authority.  That's my ultramontanist stance.

Influence in what way?

The Holy Father should allow nation states self-governance and independent standing armies, but these secular governments should ultimately answer to him. If, for some extreme reason, he wishes to condemn or request a particular action from that government then they should be obliged under penalty of excommunication and possibly physical force to obey.

But this presupposes that nation states and their governments derive their authority from the Pope and not directly from God.

But the states do not derive the authority directly from God--it derive it indirectly from Him through the consent of the governed.

That is one of the theories, yes. Especially if you like to frame it in a democratic context.

The other one is that the ruler himself receives it directly from God when he or she is anointed.
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#57
(10-05-2011, 12:19 PM)Walty Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 09:53 AM)cgraye Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 07:28 AM)Walty Wrote: The Holy Father should have influence over secular authority.  That's my ultramontanist stance.

Influence in what way?

The Holy Father should allow nation states self-governance and independent standing armies, but these secular governments should ultimately answer to him. If, for some extreme reason, he wishes to condemn or request a particular action from that government then they should be obliged under penalty of excommunication and possibly physical force to obey.

Ok, this is a perfect inversion of caesaropapism.  The inverse is just as erroneous as the original.
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#58
(10-05-2011, 12:46 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 12:19 PM)Walty Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 09:53 AM)cgraye Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 07:28 AM)Walty Wrote: The Holy Father should have influence over secular authority.  That's my ultramontanist stance.

Influence in what way?

The Holy Father should allow nation states self-governance and independent standing armies, but these secular governments should ultimately answer to him. If, for some extreme reason, he wishes to condemn or request a particular action from that government then they should be obliged under penalty of excommunication and possibly physical force to obey.

But this presupposes that nation states and their governments derive their authority from the Pope and not directly from God.

That isn't the case.

You can't make such a distinction. The authority of God comes through His Church, and only through His Church.
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#59
(10-05-2011, 02:28 PM)Walty Wrote: You can't make such a distinction. The authority of God comes through His Church, and only through His Church.

Seems our first Pope disagreed with you:

First Epistle of St Peter Wrote:2:13. Be ye subject therefore to every human creature for God's sake: whether it be to the king as excelling,

2:14. Or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of the good.

Nothing about, 'Sent by me' or 'sent through the Church'.
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#60
(10-05-2011, 02:28 PM)Walty Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 12:46 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 12:19 PM)Walty Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 09:53 AM)cgraye Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 07:28 AM)Walty Wrote: The Holy Father should have influence over secular authority.  That's my ultramontanist stance.

Influence in what way?

The Holy Father should allow nation states self-governance and independent standing armies, but these secular governments should ultimately answer to him. If, for some extreme reason, he wishes to condemn or request a particular action from that government then they should be obliged under penalty of excommunication and possibly physical force to obey.

But this presupposes that nation states and their governments derive their authority from the Pope and not directly from God.

That isn't the case.

You can't make such a distinction. The authority of God comes through His Church, and only through His Church.

But is the Pope the mediator of all authority?

Can a pope tell a child not to obey his natural father and mother?

A pope can sack a bishop, but can a pope change the fact that priests owe obedience to their bishops?

Can a pope tell a wife not to obey her husband?
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