Does the Pope possess Power to Depose Rulers and Absolve Subjects of Allegiance?
#71
(10-05-2011, 04:14 PM)Walty Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 04:09 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: Either way, my point stands: the Pope or the local bishops may incite the consciences of the populace or of other Christian rulers to overthrow a given government deemed to be tyrannical but the Church herself does not have the temporal power to legally depose the political power.

He may incite the consciences of the populace to overthrow the rebellious king or he may incite the consciences of other nations to overthrow the rebellious king.  It's the same concept.  You can't claim the right for one and not the other.

All I'm claiming is that neither the Pope or the Church has temporal and political power by divine mandate. Their power is greater than that: it'spiritual. They don't have the lawful right to depose governments but they can act upon the believer's consciences to change society and politics. That's all. I'm not even sure what we're disagreeing with.

The previous example you gave about the French king showed us precisely that: the King could be excommunicated as a faithful but could not be deposed as a king.
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#72
(10-05-2011, 04:12 PM)GottmitunsAlex Wrote: Quite so. We've seen and heard about priests that in the name of "Catholicism" carry rifles and are out to overthrow governments in South America. But they're Catholic.
so it's all good

Or popes waging wars against fellow Christians in the past.

It was sad.

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#73
Yup, tell that to his Holiness Clement VII. He would not annul a royal marriage much less accept another queen of a country.
Many Martyrs and Saints appeared because of that.
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#74
So, Walty, you would maintain that when St Peter said, 'Fear God, honour the King' (quoted in Latin in my sigline) that the pagan Emperor referenced received his authority from St Peter, whom he later martyred?
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#75
I am curious of those arguing against temporal authority also oppose the papal tiara, which after all symbolizes the ultimate temportal authority of the Papacy! 
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#76
(10-05-2011, 09:44 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: I am curious of those arguing against temporal authority also oppose the papal tiara, which after all symbolizes the ultimate temportal authority of the Papacy! 

Uh, what?  Bishop of Rome, Patriarch of the West, and Supreme Pontiff.  All three are related to his spiritual authority.
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#77
(10-05-2011, 07:02 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: So, Walty, you would maintain that when St Peter said, 'Fear God, honour the King' (quoted in Latin in my sigline) that the pagan Emperor referenced received his authority from St Peter, whom he later martyred?

No.  I would not maintain that.  The pagan Emperor received his authority from God, but he's subject to the ultimate earthly authority of the papacy when he claims to rule in the name of the Church.

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#78
(10-05-2011, 09:55 PM)Walty Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 07:02 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: So, Walty, you would maintain that when St Peter said, 'Fear God, honour the King' (quoted in Latin in my sigline) that the pagan Emperor referenced received his authority from St Peter, whom he later martyred?

No.  I would not maintain that.  The pagan Emperor received his authority from God, but he's subject to the ultimate earthly authority of the papacy when he claims to rule in the name of the Church.

I thought all the baptized and only the baptized were subject to the jurisdiction of the Church.
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#79
(10-05-2011, 09:55 PM)Walty Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 07:02 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: So, Walty, you would maintain that when St Peter said, 'Fear God, honour the King' (quoted in Latin in my sigline) that the pagan Emperor referenced received his authority from St Peter, whom he later martyred?

No.  I would not maintain that.  The pagan Emperor received his authority from God, but he's subject to the ultimate earthly authority of the papacy when he claims to rule in the name of the Church.

This would seem to be in direct contradiction to your reply in #57 which prompted my question:

(10-05-2011, 02:28 PM)Walty Wrote: The authority of God comes through His Church, and only through His Church.
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#80
(10-05-2011, 10:15 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 09:55 PM)Walty Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 07:02 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: So, Walty, you would maintain that when St Peter said, 'Fear God, honour the King' (quoted in Latin in my sigline) that the pagan Emperor referenced received his authority from St Peter, whom he later martyred?

No.  I would not maintain that.  The pagan Emperor received his authority from God, but he's subject to the ultimate earthly authority of the papacy when he claims to rule in the name of the Church.

This would seem to be in direct contradiction to your reply in #57 which prompted my question:

(10-05-2011, 02:28 PM)Walty Wrote: The authority of God comes through His Church, and only through His Church.

For spiritual matters.  I don't think that a king is not truly a king unless the pope appointed him.  That's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying that any king which rises to power and attempts to rule under the banner of Catholicism should be under obedience to the Holy Father, even in secular matters.
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