Does the Pope possess Power to Depose Rulers and Absolve Subjects of Allegiance?
#81
"Therefore by the command of God, kings and princes cannot be subject to ecclesiastical power in temporal affairs, nor can they be deposed by the authority of the keys of the Church, either directly or indirectly; nor can their subjects be released from loyalty and obedience and be freed from fulfilling their oath of allegiance...et at..." - Condemned, Errors of the Gallican Clergy (About the Power of the Roman Pontiff) "Inter multiplices," Aug. 4, 1690.

-DZ 1322

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#82
Yes, the argument being espoused by so many here is Gallicanism, straight up. 
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#83
Is the theory of indirect power also "Gallicanism"?

Catholic Encyclopedia Wrote:Hence there was another opinion defended by Hugo of St. Victor, Alexander of Hales, and others, according to which the power granted by Christ to the Church and to the pope was spiritual, and had reference only to religion and the salvation of souls. The Church had no merely temporal jurisdiction of Divine right; Christian emperors and kings were supreme within the limits of their temporal authority. However, in as much as all must give way when there is question of the salvation of souls, "For what doth it profit a man if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his soul?" and, "If thy right eye scandalize thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee"; so all impediments to salvation must be removed. He, therefore, who has the care of the salvation of soul should have the power to remove any impediment to salvation, even if it be caused by a Christian emperor or kings. Besides, Christian emperors and kings are children of the Church, and as such subject to the supreme rulers of the Church. The first Christian emperors acknowledged this; great saints and bishops like St. Ambrose and St. Chrysostom taught it and acted on it; the popes of the Middle Ages were only following precedent when they acted like manner. Bellarmine, one of the chief exponents of this theory of the indirect power of the popes over temporal affairs, says that it was the common opinion of theologians; Francisco Suárez, another great upholder of the same view, in his volume against James I of England, says that it was the more received and approved opinion among Catholics. In our time this opinion has become generally accepted, and Leo XIII seems to adopt it in his Encyclical quoted above on the Christian constitution of States. "Whatever", he says, "in things human is of a sacred character, whatever belongs either of its own nature or by reason of the end to which it is referred, to the salvation of souls or to the worship of God, is subject to the power and judgment of the Church."
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#84
The 24th error from the Syllabus states: "The Church has not the power of using force, nor has she any temporal power, direct or indirect."
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#85
(10-05-2011, 11:06 PM)Walty Wrote: The 24th error from the Syllabus states: "The Church has not the power of using force, nor has she any temporal power, direct or indirect."


We all know Christ's Kingdom is not of this world. Perhaps the Pope's is? :shrug:
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#86
(10-05-2011, 11:14 PM)Silouan Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 11:06 PM)Walty Wrote: The 24th error from the Syllabus states: "The Church has not the power of using force, nor has she any temporal power, direct or indirect."


We all know Christ's Kingdom is not of this world. Perhaps the Pope's is? :shrug:

I'm assuming this is an Eastern slam?
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#87
(10-05-2011, 11:17 PM)Walty Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 11:14 PM)Silouan Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 11:06 PM)Walty Wrote: The 24th error from the Syllabus states: "The Church has not the power of using force, nor has she any temporal power, direct or indirect."


We all know Christ's Kingdom is not of this world. Perhaps the Pope's is? :shrug:

I'm assuming this is an Eastern slam?



Just bringing a little perspective to a breathless discussion about exactly how much power the Pope really has.  :)
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#88
(10-05-2011, 11:24 PM)Silouan Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 11:17 PM)Walty Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 11:14 PM)Silouan Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 11:06 PM)Walty Wrote: The 24th error from the Syllabus states: "The Church has not the power of using force, nor has she any temporal power, direct or indirect."


We all know Christ's Kingdom is not of this world. Perhaps the Pope's is? :shrug:

I'm assuming this is an Eastern slam?



Just bringing a little perspective to a breathless discussion about exactly how much power the Pope really has.  :)

Since when does Christ's authority not rule over earth?  Just because He didn't set up an earthly authority in His lifetime does not mean that He didn't intend to have one arise afterward. 
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#89
(10-05-2011, 11:32 PM)Walty Wrote: Since when does Christ's authority not rule over earth?  Just because He didn't set up an earthly authority in His lifetime does not mean that He didn't intend to have one arise afterward. 

He said that his kingdom was not of this world.  That may not be a direct renunciation of the possibility of a worldly kingdom afterwards, but as always, an argument from silence isn't an argument.  You're basically saying that Christ would establish a kingdom of this world afterward, and your proof is that Christ never said he wouldn't.  Very faulty logic there.
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#90
(10-05-2011, 11:53 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(10-05-2011, 11:32 PM)Walty Wrote: Since when does Christ's authority not rule over earth?  Just because He didn't set up an earthly authority in His lifetime does not mean that He didn't intend to have one arise afterward. 

He said that his kingdom was not of this world.  That may not be a direct renunciation of the possibility of a worldly kingdom afterwards, but as always, an argument from silence isn't an argument.  You're basically saying that Christ would establish a kingdom of this world afterward, and your proof is that Christ never said he wouldn't.  Very faulty logic there.

No, my proof is the Catholic faith.
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