Rick Perry Dancing with the Rabbis........
(10-10-2011, 12:01 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: It's simple, UD:

If social discrimination of Jews is intrinsically wrong, then the Church was simply wrong for many centuries and an accessory of evil. There's no way around this, not even by invoking the "some were bad Christians; some did not accept God's grace" cop-out. It was a large and established reality everywhere. You are forced to conclude that Catholic Christendom, the pinnacle of God's kingdom on earth, was dead wrong. In fact, the enemies of the Church were the ones that ended this and other practices, not the Church. The same with slavery and persecution of heretics, for instance.

So, what do you conclude?

Ok, that's what I thought you were saying. And you used one of the other common practices that I was thinking of in relation to your argument (slavery). So, we can assert that slavery was tolerated for a long time by the Church, but is now held to be wrong, just as divorce was tolerated in the OT, but is soundly condemned now. Is that not the same thing? That what was tolerated at one time due to the hardness of men's hearts may at a later time be rightly condemned?

I really appreciate your taking the time to explain your way of thinking about this to me. It's certainly much nicer treatment than I receive elsewhere on the forum.
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(10-10-2011, 03:53 PM)Underdog Wrote:
(10-10-2011, 12:01 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: It's simple, UD:

If social discrimination of Jews is intrinsically wrong, then the Church was simply wrong for many centuries and an accessory of evil. There's no way around this, not even by invoking the "some were bad Christians; some did not accept God's grace" cop-out. It was a large and established reality everywhere. You are forced to conclude that Catholic Christendom, the pinnacle of God's kingdom on earth, was dead wrong. In fact, the enemies of the Church were the ones that ended this and other practices, not the Church. The same with slavery and persecution of heretics, for instance.

So, what do you conclude?

Ok, that's what I thought you were saying. And you used one of the other common practices that I was thinking of in relation to your argument (slavery). So, we can assert that slavery was tolerated for a long time by the Church, but is now held to be wrong, just as divorce was tolerated in the OT, but is soundly condemned now. Is that not the same thing? That what was tolerated at one time due to the hardness of men's hearts may at a later time be rightly condemned?

But the differences between the OT and NT cannot be extrapolated to the age of Christendom as if there were an OT Christendom and a NT Christendom. The Old Testament was a foreshadow of the things to come, pointing towards Christ the redeemer, a covenant that ought to be consummated and elevated to God's righteousness and mercy. The New Testament is not a foreshadow, it does not point to anywhere but to its own, i.e. Christ, it's already the fulfillment of all of God's promises, it's the kingdom of God on earth. It's the real thing, it's God that came running towards us, evelating us from the misery of the flesh and the bondage of sin and iniquity.

The differences between the OT and the NT are differences between covenants of law and grace, between flesh and spirit. Those things tolerated to the patriarchs in the OT and the law prescribed to the Jews did not save them or make them holy but rather conscious of their own sinfulness and inexcusable before God. "The law entered in, that sin might abound." (Romans 5:20) and "But I do not know sin, but by the law; for I had not known concupiscence, if the law did not say: Thou shalt not covet. But sin taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. And I lived some time without the law. But when the commandment came, sin revived, And I died. And the commandment that was ordained to life, the same was found to be unto death to me." (Romans 7:7-10)

But once made new creatures in Christ, Christians are raised to a completely new level. The Church is to be the salt of the earth, walking in the wisdom of the spirit. "For the wisdom of the flesh is death; but the wisdom of the spirit is life and peace." (Romans 8:6)

So, it's unthinkable that the Church, the pillar and ground of truth, would allow and bless behaviours for thousands of years that were intrinsically sinful. The hardness of hearts is no longer a palatable excuse as if we did not know any better, as if Christ hadn't come. As I said earlier, either these things are sinful or they're not.

Quote:I really appreciate your taking the time to explain your way of thinking about this to me. It's certainly much nicer treatment than I receive elsewhere on the forum.

We're all brothers and sisters in Christ. We ought to be patient towards one another, bearing one another's faults and striving to love one another. In fact, that's how Christ said that people would recognise us as being His true followers. It's no small a matter. "A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another." (John 13:34-35)
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Vetus- when are you going to the seminary?

We need you, brother!
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Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
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(10-10-2011, 03:25 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: Vetus- how many languages do you speak?

Fluently? Portuguese, Spanish and English.

To varying degrees (from "passable" to "mediocre"): Italian, French, German, Greek, Russian and very small bits of Dutch, Hungarian, Turkish and Arabic. I also have a good knowledge of Latin, although I don't really speak it.

(10-10-2011, 04:41 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: Vetus- when are you going to the seminary?

It's a possibility but surely not in the near future. I'm still not sure what place God has for me in His Church but whichever it is, I only hope that I can be steadfast in the faith and order all my actions towards His glory. Nevertheless, no matter which state in life we're in, we are all "also as living stones built up, a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 2:5)

And St. Paul reminds us of the different gifts he bestows to his children for the edification of His Church: "And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors, For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ." (Ephesians 4:11-12)

Not everything is about being a priest when it comes to witnessing Christ and edifying His Church.

Quote:We need you, brother!

No, you need Christ, our only hope. "The mystery which hath been hidden from ages and generations, but now is manifested to his saints, To whom God would make known the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ, in you the hope of glory." (Colossians 1:26-27)
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Well, my own peasant opinion of the situation is that the way you replied to me is the exact reason you would make a good one.  But I will leave it alone.  :)

Although I remember one of our local priests saying, about his time in the seminary that the men who would have made the best priests all left to go get married.  So here's to a beautiful Mediterranean princess with a rich father!
More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
Reply
(10-10-2011, 05:12 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: So here's to a beautiful Mediterranean princess with a rich father!

:wine:

Cheers!
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