Jesus wasn't crucified!
#31
(10-28-2011, 06:34 PM)ecclesiastes Wrote:
(10-28-2011, 06:10 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: Why would there be any roman documents?

Because this all happened in a Roman world.

Not all that happened in the Roman world, especially in far off provinces, was committed to paper and even those things that were, many were eventually lost.

By any historical standards there are enough testimonies to guarantee us that the crucifixion really happened. For once, the Jews never denied it. Neither did the Romans.
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#32
(10-28-2011, 06:39 PM)paul11b Wrote: I'm sorry but the Muslim religion is ridiculous. Did anyone else catch that they are suing the CATHOLIC university because they can't find a place to pray without crucifixes and pictures of Jesus? I wonder if they'd provide a room with Crucifixes and pictures of Jesus if I were attending the Muslim university in Saudi Arabia...or in America for that matter.

Hell would freeze over first.

(10-28-2011, 06:54 PM)ecclesiastes Wrote:
(10-28-2011, 06:48 PM)Pilgrim Wrote: In his account of Nero's persecution, the Roman historian Tacitus discusses the execution of Jesus, though he doesn't claim he was crucified per se.

True. I forgot about Tacitus when I made my earlier comment. But even that is relatively late (second century), about 80 years or so after the events, and

80 years isn't that long.  It would have been possible to find men who heard from theri parents about the crucifixion.  Even teh CIlvil War, 150 years ago, isn't that far off.  My older siblings, around theri 30's now, knew my great-grandmother.  She in turn, knew the daughter of a civil war vet.  Its possible she could have known the vet himself, had he not died from an illness he got during the war.  

(10-28-2011, 07:29 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(10-28-2011, 06:34 PM)ecclesiastes Wrote:
(10-28-2011, 06:10 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: Why would there be any roman documents?

Because this all happened in a Roman world.

Not all that happened in the Roman world, especially in far off provinces, was committed to paper and even those things that were, many were eventually lost.

By any historical standards there are enough testimonies to guarantee us that the crucifixion really happened. For once, the Jews never denied it. Neither did the Romans.
 

The importance of this cannot be understated.
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#33
(10-28-2011, 02:08 PM)ecclesiastes Wrote:
(10-27-2011, 10:39 PM)drummerboy Wrote: Mohammed conveniently ignored a well documented event (Rome had one of the most literate civilizations ever)

Actually, the crucifixion is not at all a well documented event.

:bronxcheer:
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#34
(10-28-2011, 05:39 PM)Walty Wrote:
(10-28-2011, 05:23 PM)ecclesiastes Wrote:
(10-28-2011, 05:17 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: Ecclesiastes is right, there isn't much evidence of Christ's historical crucifixion outside the Gospel- Josephus is probably the best we have.  Tbh, as far as I can tell the main argument against Joseph is that he is confirming the crucifixion.  That seems to be what it comes down to- Josephus believes Jesus existed and was crucified, therefore he is wrong.

There is a lot of philological evidence, I believe. As several scholars have noted, the Testimonium Flavianum has a different style than the rest of the book. So that leaves us with the statement that James was "the brother of Jesus, who is the Christ". (Note that the text does not say "whom they call the Christ" or something similar!) This is indeed suspect, as Josephus was a Jew, not a Christian. To acknowledge someone is the Christ means you are a Christian.

Well, he attested to the many wondrous deeds performed by Jesus.

Other Jewish sources;

Talmud, b. Sanhedrin 43a: On the eve of the Passover Yeshu [Jesus] was hanged [or crucified]. ... Since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.

The Amoa "Ulla" (Ulla was a disciple of Youchanan and lived in Palestine at the end of the third century) adds: "And do you suppose that for (Yeshu of Nazareth - Jesus) there was any right of appeal? He was a beguiler, and the Merciful One hath said: "Thou shalt not spare neither shalt thou conceal him." It is otherwise with Yeshu, for He was near to the civil authority.

Roman sources;

Cornelius Tacitus in his Annals, xv. 44: Christus ... was executed at the hands of the procurator Pontious Pilate.

Lucian of Samosata: (Christ was) the man who was crucified in Palestine

Above from http://answering-islam.org/Silas/crucified.htm

Both Roman orator Julius Africanus and Christian theologian Origen refer to Greek historian Phlegon as having written "with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion...r_accounts

There's a pile more proof here.
http://www.westarkchurchofchrist.org/lib...blical.htm
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