The crisis since Vatican II, What are the numbers?
#11
Someone, somewhere here in the tank posted these statistics. The fall off in Sunday Mass attendance started in 1958, well before the Vatican II.
It was slight but it was there. It could be explained away by the baby boom, and many mothers givig birth, but Fatima played a role also. The USA was a buzz about Fatima and the third secret, in fact the DuMont Network had a program about Fatima in 1959. DuMont was a national TV network that failed.

This is a subject that Fr. Jim would be able to shed a lot of light on. Perhaps if we examined what the priests and the faithful were thinking in those days it would give some understanding beyond the platitudes which are tossed around as if gospel facts. One thought, somewhere in those years we went from being expatriate Euro-Catholics, in our ghetto Parishes, to American Catholics, suburban flight being the major cause.

It appears to me that while Vatican II was key, there were other factors equally dynamic which ripped apart the Church. Much of this was caused by the pursuit of do-re-mi. The flight to burbia diluted the faith by living among the many protestants, and VII was after the fact, as well as ill advised.

tim
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#12
(11-30-2011, 09:59 AM)Tim Wrote: but Fatima played a role also. The USA was a buzz about Fatima and the third secret, in fact the DuMont Network had a program about Fatima in 1959. DuMont was a national TV network that failed.

So, you are saying that the Fatima buzz about the 3rd secret was brought about by a TV show? Starting to sound more and more like a psy-op to help destroy Faith in the Church rather than help it. I would love to see this little gem. Any idea if it is available on youtube? So in other words, the lesser educated Catholics got all excited about Fatima by TV, while the higher educated, and social climbing Catholics got their bad dosage from Time Magazine and John Courtney Murray. Brilliant! Something for everybody!!!
Quote:One thought, somewhere in those years we went from being expatriate Euro-Catholics, in our ghetto Parishes, to American Catholics, suburban flight being the major cause... The flight to burbia diluted the faith by living among the many protestants, and VII was after the fact, as well as ill advised.

This was Social Engineering at it's best. Read the Slaughter of the Cities: Urban Renewal as Ethnic Cleasinsing by E. Michael Jones. It was no accident. And it was a response to the threat of real Catholic power emerging out of those neighborhoods. 

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#13
(11-30-2011, 08:48 AM)Stubborn Wrote:
(11-30-2011, 08:21 AM)Scotus Wrote:
(11-30-2011, 08:07 AM)Stubborn Wrote:
(11-30-2011, 02:35 AM)SPB Wrote:
(11-30-2011, 02:14 AM)Aragon Wrote: I think the decline is caused more by the cultural revolution the Western World underwent rather than Vatican II specifically.

Nope. Not only is this not true, even if it were it would still result in the same thing for Vatican II. Why? Because Vatican II claimed to be moving with the times and updating the Church for the modern man - something that was a massive failure. Either way you look at it, the crisis in faith since Vatican II was caused by Vatican II.

Sad but true SPB.

Additionally, if someone comes across some statistics for the increase in psychiatric care that followed V2, please post some info on that.
I remember quite a few pre-V2 Catholics, including some nuns, who pretty much, literally lost their minds along with their faith in the V2  revolution. Add that to the list of things we can thank V2 for. :(

Fr Chad Ripperger has said that pre-Vatican II there were very few Catholics amongst the patients of mental hospitals. After Vatican II, it appears that Catholics are the largest religious group to be found in such institutions. I think the quote is from his talks on Psychology on his website.

Absolutely the way I remember it. I vaguely remember something on the news in the 70s about the increase of Catholics in mental hospitals. Prior to V2, Catholics used their priest as their shrink because it was sinful to disclose deeply personal information to anyone else and because the advice of your priest was always deemed spiritually and mentally reliable and  overall helpful to ones spiritual and mental well being.

Can you post a link when you get around to it?

On a related note, Chesterton used to say that modern psychiatry and shrinks were a secular replacement for Confession.
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#14
Bishop Sheen said something to the effect that, after v2 the confessionals were empty and the psych offices were full.

Adam, I think Tim was saying the tv show was in addition to the buzz, not the cause of the buzz. My MIL can attest to the buzz. She said people were really let down when the 1960 press release came out.
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#15
Adam,
DuMont went out of business, perhaps because they broadcast the story of Fatima.. Catholics were a buzz because they believed Our Lady had a special message that woul be released in 1960. We trusted Our Lady, it was a peasant thing. Even the Prots. were interested. Think in terms of a message from Almighty God sent throgh Our Lady. The fall off in 1958 was a few percent, it could also mean these were the ones that didn't believe God Almighty intervenes in time and history. No matter what stripe every Catholic knew about Fatima. Priests delivered sermons pro and con about what was contained in the message. We are talking about the greatest event in history  in the 20th century, in fact since the Ascension of Jesus Christ the Lord.

I think the flight to burbia started as a reaction to over crowding. Rental apartments were hard to come by after the war, and growing families were living with relatives. Remember Rohm said never let a crisis go to waste and so the social engineers set to work against their only enemy the Catholic Church, which set in motion what that book is all about.
tim
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#16
Some stats on the bottom of this page:  http://www.fisheaters.com/johnxxiii.html
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#17
(11-30-2011, 09:59 AM)Tim Wrote: Someone, somewhere here in the tank posted these statistics. The fall off in Sunday Mass attendance started in 1958, well before the Vatican II.
It was slight but it was there. It could be explained away by the baby boom, and many mothers givig birth, but Fatima played a role also. 

Could you explain this? I was not around then, and so cannot imagine how this buzz on Fatima would lead to a decrease in church attendance.


(11-30-2011, 09:59 AM)Tim Wrote: One thought, somewhere in those years we went from being expatriate Euro-Catholics, in our ghetto Parishes, to American Catholics, suburban flight being the major cause.

It appears to me that while Vatican II was key, there were other factors equally dynamic which ripped apart the Church. Much of this was caused by the pursuit of do-re-mi. The flight to burbia diluted the faith by living among the many protestants, and VII was after the fact, as well as ill advised.

There is a book by a conservative Catholic that argues that the decline in Catholic practice was more due to the cultural revolution of the 60's and the de-ghettoization of American Catholic than to Vatican II and its "Spirit." The book is called The Decline and Fall of the Catholic Church in America, and you may see a summary and two reviews of it in The Catholic Social Science Review 10, under "Diagnosis."

This thesis seems compelling until you consider that the decline of the Church is a worldwide phenomenon. The cultural revolution of the mid-century was worldwide too, though stronger in the West, but the de-ghettoization of Catholicism is something uniquely American, because only in the USA (and the UK?) was Catholicism a ghetto.

It is curious to me that the Catholic traditionalist movement seems fairly weak outside France and the English-speaking world.
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#18
(11-30-2011, 04:51 PM)m.PR Wrote: It is curious to me that the Catholic traditionalist movement seems fairly weak outside France and the English-speaking world.

This is true.

The more Catholic a country was before the Council, the more it became resistant to the traditional movement afterwards. The numbers of traditional priests, parishes, vocations and faithful in Europe is ridiculous, especially in Southern Europe.
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#19
I don't know if there is a relaionship between the Fatima secret and the fall off. I just find it curious, and that's why I pointed it out.  What I remember is folks were very confused and angry when we were told it would not be released.

tim
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#20
(11-30-2011, 05:46 PM)Tim Wrote: I don't know if there is a relaionship between the Fatima secret and the fall off. I just find it curious, and that's why I pointed it out.  What I remember is folks were very confused and angry when we were told it would not be released.

tim

It seemed that a lot of high ranking prelates became Freemasons in 1957 and there was reportedly a Satanic Enthronement in 57... Any correlations or no?
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