The crisis since Vatican II, What are the numbers?
#31
(12-03-2011, 08:06 AM)TraditionalistThomas Wrote: I think your missing my point... I meant, the Protestants also suffered from extreme liberalism during the cultural revolution, so my point was that it wasn't 'Vatican II' but rather the cultural revolution that caused all the troubles we have today. What Vatican II intended is far from what the Church got in the 70s...

Unfortunately, wrong. By pushing its wretched "aggiornamento" and "opening of the windows of the Church to the world," along with its embrace of religious freedom, acidic ecumenism, and collegiality - corresponding to the liberté, égalité, fraternité of the French Revolution - along with its cult of man, cult of novelty, and much more, Vatican II accomplished precisely what it set out to do: conform the Church to the world as much as humanly possible. It was no slip of the tongue when Cardinal Suenens triumphantly said that "Vatican II is the French Revolution in the Church." To begin to understand just what this means, listen:

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/200711...-of-2.html

&

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/200712...-of-2.html

Incidentally, I hear this as an FSSP priest - who is, unlike those of the SSPX, relatively bridled via his official status - very cleverly, implicitly attacking the revolution of Vatican II.

In short, Vatican II followed the Protestants in selling out to the world. The Protestanized Mass - the Novus Ordo - is the most visible sign of this following.

There's much to learn in this book:

http://www.angeluspress.org/oscatalog/it...the-crisis

The chapters on religious liberty and ecumenism are alone worth its price. If you think it's worth nothing, then read it for free here:

http://www.angelusonline.org/index.php?section=articles&subsection=show_article&article_id=2609
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#32
(12-31-2011, 02:20 AM)MaximusScriptorius Wrote: I finally got the book in my hands and it is really depressing to look at. (Index of Leading Catholic Indicators, The Church Since Vatican II by Kenneth C. Jones)
It is filled with bar graphs, charts, and statistics which show the growth and decline of many aspects of Church life and practice.
On almost every bar graph in the book there is a steady growth until the late 60's to early 70's and from there it falls off dramatically.
There are several that rise again after the decline, but most were still falling up to the year 2002. (the book was published in 2003)

After looking over the results, it became clearer to me that I should focus more on the solution than the source of the problem.
The solution being a return to tradition, of course.
But it does help to find the cause. The problem is convincing those who do not recognize a crisis in the Church.

After studying this book, I don't know how anyone with a clear mind could deny the crisis.
A copy of it should be placed on the desk every bishop and priest.

They might acknowledge the facts, but they would reject the conclusion. They usually just trump it up to a spurious relationship. The last person with whom I debated this issue (on the forum) made the claim that the cause was the result of increased technological advancements in communication, which provided for the international dissemination of misinformation.

But this is problematic for a number of reasons. For example, the entire world didn't all get television sets, telephones, radios, and the internet all in the same decade.
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#33
(12-31-2011, 02:49 AM)Jackson K. Eskew Wrote: Unfortunately, wrong. By pushing its wretched "aggiornamento" and "opening of the windows of the Church to the world," along with its embrace of religious freedom, acidic ecumenism, and collegiality - corresponding to the liberté, égalité, fraternité of the French Revolution - along with its cult of man, cult of novelty, and much more, Vatican II accomplished precisely what it set out to do: conform the Church to the world as much as humanly possible. It was no slip of the tongue when Cardinal Suenens triumphantly said that "Vatican II is the French Revolution in the Church." To begin to understand just what this means, listen:

Even better, listen to Paul VI himself:
Pope Paul VI, Address During The Last General Meeting Of Vatican II, December 7, 1965 Wrote:We prefer to point out how charity has been the principal religious feature of this council. Now, no one can reprove as want of religion or infidelity to the Gospel such a basic orientation, when we recall that it is Christ Himself who taught us that love for our brothers is the distinctive mark of His disciples (cf. John 13:35); when we listen to the words of the apostle: "If he is to offer service pure and unblemished in the sight of God, who is our Father, he must take care of orphans and widows in their need, and keep himself untainted by the world" (James 1:27) and again: "He has seen his brother, and has no love for him; what love can he have for the God he has never seen" (1 John 4:20).

Yes, the Church of the council has been concerned, not just with herself and with her relationship of union with God, but with man -- man as he really is today: living man, man all wrapped up in himself, man who makes himself not only the center of his every interest but dares to claim that he is the principle and explanation of all reality. Every perceptible element in man, every one of the countless guises in which he appears, has, in a sense, been displayed in full view of the council Fathers, who, in their turn, are mere men, and yet all of them are pastors and brothers whose position accordingly fills them with solicitude and love. Among these guises we may cite man as the tragic actor of his own plays; man as the superman of yesterday and today, ever frail, unreal, selfish, and savage; man unhappy with himself as he laughs and cries; man the versatile actor ready to perform any part; man the narrow devotee of nothing but scientific reality; man as he is, a creature who thinks and loves and toils and is always waiting for something, the "growing son" (Gen. 49:22); man sacred because of the innocence of his childhood, because of the mystery of his poverty, because of the dedication of his suffering; man as an individual and man in society; man who lives in the glories of the past and dreams of those of the future; man the sinner and man the saint, and so on.

Secular humanism, revealing itself in its horrible anticlerical reality has, in a certain sense, defied the council. The religion of the God who became man has met the religion (for such it is) of man who makes himself God. And what happened? Was there a clash, a battle, a condemnation? There could have been, but there was none.
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#34
Don't forget this notorious part of the speech:

"But we call upon those who term themselves modern humanists, and who have renounced the transcendent value of the highest realities, to give the council credit at least for one quality and to recognize our own new type of humanism: we, too, in fact, we more than any others, honor mankind [nam nos etiam, immo nos prae ceteris, hominis sumus cultores]....But one must realize that this council, which exposed itself to human judgment, insisted very much more upon this pleasant side of man, rather than on his unpleasant one. Its attitude was very much and deliberately optimistic. A wave of affection and admiration flowed from the council over the modern world of humanity. Errors were condemned, indeed, because charity demanded this no less than did truth, but for the persons themselves there was only warning, respect and love. Instead of depressing diagnoses, encouraging remedies; instead of direful prognostics, messages of trust issued from the council to the present-day world. The modern world's values were not only respected but honored, its efforts approved, its aspirations purified and blessed."


And see:

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/mode...ernism.htm


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#35
(11-30-2011, 08:58 PM)Tim Wrote: Crusader, thats the kind of thing which makes me hold my tongue. There is way more to this than some liberal progressives throwing monkey wrenches into the works. This is a planned all out assault by the adversary from multiple fronts.

tim

Hi Tim!     :)

I basically agree with a number of you on this subject, including MaximusScriptorius   :)

If one reviews the history of the Catholic Church, one finds problems from the very beginning.  After all, Judas was the first traitor.

Another interesting character is an Infiltrator by the name of Arius in the later 3rd and early 4th Century of the Patriarchate of Alexandria, Egypt, who denied the Divinity of Christ.  The First Œcumenical Council, which was the First Council of Nicæa [Saturday, June 20, 325 A.D. - Tuesday, August 25, 325 A.D.] condemned the Arian heresy and "father" Arius.

Concerning this almost "universal heresy", at least in the East, Saint Jerome made the famous observation:

Quote:“The whole world groaned, and was astonished to find itself Arian” (Saint Jerome, a.k.a. Eusebius Hieronymus, a.k.a. Sophronius [b. Stridon, Dalmatia c. 340 A.D. - d. Bethlehem, Palestine, Wednesday, September 30, 420 A.D.], Doctor of the Catholic Church, “The Dialogue Against the Luciferians”, ¶ 19).

Unfortunately, too frequently history tends to repeat itself and those who have failed to learn the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them.

Various Priests I have met, or otherwise known, over the years have observed, along with various historians, how General Councils have been called because of a crisis in the Church.  The crisis was frequently because of a heresy which, at least for conspiracy theorists, (I need more proof before I can accept some of these "theories"), was due in large part to "intruders" which I understand to mean "infiltrators".

The ultimate reason for any crisis in the Church is diabolical because the Devil and his fallen angels have been on the attack ever since Adam and Eve.  The flood of Noah gives one an idea of how really rotten things were back then.

The bottom line is that today one must recognize that this is the ultimate reason for the problems, made worse ever since Original Sin, because of fallen human nature.  It takes Grace and effort to live a life of real Virtue.  According to some sources, at Fatima Our Lady said that WWI was a punishment for "bad marriages".

Tim, I agree with you that even before V-2, there were some problems in the Church.

First, one has His Holiness, Pope Saint Pius X, warning all Catholics to be on guard against the Modernist heretics.  Among other things, he wrote in part:

Quote:“43. And here we have already some of the artifices employed by Modernists to exploit their wares. What efforts do they not make to win new recruits! They seize upon professorships in the seminaries and universities, and gradually make of them chairs of pestilence. In sermons from the pulpit they disseminate their doctrines, although possibly in utterances which are veiled. In congresses they express their teachings more openly. In their social gatherings they introduce them and commend them to others. Under their own names and under pseudonyms they publish numbers of books, newspapers, reviews, and sometimes one and the same writer adopts a variety of pseudonyms to trap the incautious reader into believing in a multitude of Modernist writers. In short, with feverish activity they leave nothing untried in act, speech, and writing. And with what result? We have to deplore the spectacle of many young men, once full of promise and capable of rendering great services to the Church, now gone astray. It is also a subject of grief to Us that many others who, while they certainly do not go so far as the former, have yet been so infected by breathing a poisoned atmosphere, as to think, speak, and write with a degree of laxity which ill becomes a Catholic. They are to be found among the laity, and in the ranks of the clergy, and they are not wanting even in the last place where one might expect to meet them, in religious communities...” (“Pascendi Dominici Gregis”,  [Sunday, September 8, 1907], condemnation of the Heresy of Modernism, paragraph # 43, emphasis added).

Fortunately, by the most Holy Will and Grace of God, not all Seminaries had been infiltrated at that time.  Then, when Pope Saint Pius X issued his automatic excommunication of all Modernist Heretics a few months later, in his Motu Proprio Præstantia Scripturæ Sacræ,, Monday, November 18, 1907, the Modernists ran for cover and apparently many of them went "underground" in an effort to regroup later?

So who were some of these many young men[/b], once full of promise and capable of rendering great services to the Church, now gone astray?  Self-evidently, some of the future Priests, Bishops, Archbishops, Cardinals, and maybe some at a higher level?

Second, I can still remember, back when I was about 5 or 6 years old and my Parents seemed to prefer the back of the Church at the 6:00 a.m. Sunday Mass, (A few years later, they moved to the very first pew in the front by the pulpit and remained there until the changes of the changes), when it came time for receiving Holy Communion, almost everyone in the last 6 or 8 rows of pews in the back of the Church got up - a few of these went to receive Holy Communion, but the larger percentage of this group went out the door as if Mass was over!  I remember my Dad telling my Mom and me that he asked some of the people he knew who did this, why they left before Mass was over?  They all told him they had things they wanted to do, e.g. go fishing, and so get an "early start"!  

How much of this problem was due to ignorance because the Parish Priests never gave a Sermon, at least not that I can remember, on what the Mass is, I have no way of knowing.  But I really doubt that even if they had done so, those people would still have left the Mass during Holy Communion?  Even so, these people were less than about .01% of the Congregation.

When I was in the Seminary, I was very, very fortunate that we had no Modernist heretics for Professors or Religious Superiors.  My Seminary formation was very traditional and every day I thank the good God for such a wonderful Blessing!

Third, we have these Prophetic warnings of Our Lord and Blessed Mother in 1902 and 1904 to Marie-Julie Jahenny which I understand were approved by Monsignor Fourier, the Bishop of Nantes:

Quote:“I give you a warning. The disciples who are not of My Gospel are now working hard to remake according to their ideas, and under the influence of the enemy of souls [Satan], a Mass that contains words which are odious in My Sight. When the fatal hour arrives where the faith of My Priests are put to the test, it will be these texts that will be celebrated, in this second period.”

“The first period is the one of My Priesthood, existing since Me. The second is the one of the persecution, when the enemies of the Faith and of Holy Religion will impose their formulas in the book of the second celebration. Many of My holy Priests will refuse this book, sealed with the words of the abyss. Unfortunately, amongst them are those who will accept it.”  (Our Lord on Saturday, November 27, 1902; emphasis added).

Quote:“They will not stop on this hateful and sacrilegious road. They will go further to compromise all at once, and in one blow, the Holy Church, the Clergy, and the Faith of my children.”

Our Blessed Mother announced the “dispersion of the pastors” by the church herself; true Pastors, who will be replaced by others formed by Hell:  “...NEW preachers of NEW sacraments, NEW temples, NEW baptisms, NEW confraternities.” (Our Lady on Tuesday, May 10, 1904; emphasis added).

Fourth, is the admission of a former Communist Dr. Bella Dodd who claimed that the Communist party actively infiltrated agents into Roman Catholic Seminaries.  She  told her friend, Dr. Alice von Hildebrand, the theologian, that:

Quote:“When she was an active party member, she had dealt with no fewer than four cardinals within the Vatican who were working for us, [i.e. the Communist Party]” (Christian Order magazine, “The Church in Crisis”, reprinted from The Latin Mass magazine).

Mrs./Dr. Bella V. Dodd made a public affidavit which was witnessed by a number of people, including Paul and Johnine Leininger.  In her public affidavit, among other things, Mrs./Dr. Bella V. Dodd stated:

Quote:“In the late 1920’s and 1930’s, directives were sent from Moscow to all Communist Party organizations. In order to destroy the [Roman] Catholic Church from within, party members were to be planted in seminaries and within diocesan organizations... I, myself, put some 1,200 men in [Roman] Catholic seminaries”.

Ex-Communist and celebrated convert Douglas Hyde revealed long ago that in the 1930's the Communist leadership issued a worldwide directive about infiltrating the Catholic Church. While in the early 1950's, Mrs. Bella Dodd was also providing detailed explanations of the Communist subversion of the Church. Speaking as a former high ranking official of the American Communist Party, Mrs. Dodd said: “In the 1930s we put eleven hundred men into the priesthood in order to destroy the Church from within.” The idea was for these men to be ordained and progress to positions of influence and authority as Monsignors and Bishops. A dozen years before Vatican II she stated that: “Right now they are in the highest places in the Church” — where they were working to bring about change in order to weaken the Church's effectiveness against Communism. She also said that these changes would be so drastic that “you will not recognize the Catholic Church.”

Fifth, Herbert Romerstein and Eric Breindel wrote a book entitled “The Venona Secrets - Exposing Soviet Espionage and America’s Traitors”, published in 2000 A.D. by Regnery Publishing, Inc., An Eagle Publishing Company, One Massachusetts Avenue, NW, Washington, D.C.  20001  

The subject matter concerns Soviet Communist espionage in the United States before, during, and after WWII.  The source for this work was obtained from the official Communist Party archives in Moscow, Russia.  

According to the Preface of this book:

Quote:“....researchers were given access to Soviet archives.  An article in a hard-line Russian newspaper in April, 1993 said: ‘What right do the Americans have to conduct research into secret materials in our archives?  Which traitor to Russia’s interests opened the door to them?’ But before the hard-liners succeeded in convincing Boris Yeltsin to restrict some of the more interesting sections, we had obtained thousands of pages of documents from the archives of the Communist International.  Other researchers shared thousands more with us, and we in turn shared the material with Eric Breindel.”

“In 1982 he [Eric had] ..... joined the Staff of the Senate Intelligence Committee.... “

“When Eric and I compared the ‘Verona’ material with the documents we had obtained from the Soviet archives and with material the FBI had released about its investigations, we realized that the whole story had not yet been told.... “

Among other things, these archives confirmed the existence of operation “Outstretched Hand” which included the infiltration of Communists into Roman Catholic Seminaries!

In addition, the official Communist Party archives in Moscow, Russia includes a document which divulges that members of the Communist Party had also infiltrated a number of important Roman Catholic organizations, including the Holy Name Society which used to be found in almost all Roman Catholic parishes in the U.S.!

In summary, all of the above fits what happened - exactly!  

This was all pre-planned.  Both the NEW Theology Theologians - excommunicated Modernist Heretics - and the Communist Infiltrators have engaged in a deliberate program of propaganda in which they LIE to Catholics to cover up the fact they have DESTROYED the Catholic Faith, Mass, and Sacraments.

These human agents of Satan have turned the Vatican into a proverbial Kingdom of Lies.  Those who would defend the immutable Catholic Truths, along with the immutable Catholic Faith, Mass, and Sacraments are ridiculed and condemned because Truth is Treason in the Kingdom of Lies!

On the subject of statistics, all I have is Pat Buchanan's, who also cites  Kenneth C. Jones:

Quote:An index of Catholicism’s decline

A Review by Pat Buchanan

As the Watergate scandal of 1973-1974 diverted attention from the far greater tragedy unfolding in Southeast Asia, so, too, the scandal of predator-priests now afflicting the Catholic Church may be covering up a far greater calamity.

Thirty-seven years after the end of the only church council of the 20th century, the jury has come in with its verdict: Vatican II appears to have been an unrelieved disaster for Roman Catholicism. Liars may figure, but figures do not lie. Kenneth C. Jones of St. Louis has pulled together a slim volume of statistics he has titled Index of Leading Catholic Indicators: The Church Since Vatican II.

His findings make prophets of Catholic traditionalists who warned that Vatican II would prove a blunder of historic dimensions, and those same findings expose as foolish and naive those who believed a council could reconcile Catholicism and modernity. When Pope John XXIII threw open the windows of the church, all the poisonous vapors of modernity entered, along with the Devil himself.

Here are Jones's grim statistics of Catholicism's decline:

Priests. While the number of priests in the United States more than doubled to 58,000, between 1930 and 1965, since then that number has fallen to 45,000. By 2020, there will be only 31,000 priests left, and more than half of these priests will be over 70.

Ordinations. In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained in the United States. In 2002, the number was 450. In 1965, only 1 percent of U.S. parishes were without a priest. Today, there are 3,000 priestless parishes, 15 percent of all U.S. parishes.

Seminarians. Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700, a decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the 600 seminaries that were operating in 1965 have now closed.

Sisters. In 1965, there were 180,000 Catholic nuns. By 2002, that had fallen to 75,000 and the average age of a Catholic nun is today 68. In 1965, there were 104,000 teaching nuns. Today, there are 8,200, a decline of 94 percent since the end of Vatican II.

Religious Orders. For religious orders in America, the end is in sight. In 1965, 3,559 young men were studying to become Jesuit priests. In 2000, the figure was 389. With the Christian Brothers, the situation is even more dire. Their number has shrunk by two-thirds, with the number of seminarians falling 99 percent. In 1965, there were 912 seminarians in the Christian Brothers. In 2000, there were only seven.

The number of young men studying to become Franciscan and Redemptorist priests fell from 3,379 in 1965 to 84 in 2000.

Catholic schools. Almost half of all Catholic high schools in the United States have closed since 1965. The student population has fallen from 700,000 to 386,000. Parochial schools suffered an even greater decline. Some 4,000 have disappeared, and the number of pupils attending has fallen below 2 million -- from 4.5 million.

Though the number of U.S. Catholics has risen by 20 million since 1965, Jones' statistics show that the power of Catholic belief and devotion to the Faith are not nearly what they were.

Catholic Marriage. Catholic marriages have fallen in number by one-third since 1965, while the annual number of annulments has soared from 338 in 1968 to 50,000 in 2002.

Attendance at Mass. A 1958 Gallup Poll reported that three in four Catholics attended church on Sundays. A recent study by the University of Notre Dame found that only one in four now attend.

Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers now accept church teaching on contraception.

Fifty-three percent believe a Catholic can have an abortion and remain a good Catholic.

Sixty-five percent believe that Catholics may divorce and remarry.

Seventy-seven percent believe one can be a good Catholic without going to mass on Sundays.

By one New York Times poll, 70 percent of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is merely a “symbolic reminder” of Jesus.

At the opening of Vatican II, reformers were all the rage. They were going to lead us out of our Catholic ghettos by altering the liturgy, rewriting the Bible and missals, abandoning the old traditions, making us more ecumenical, and engaging the world. And their legacy?

Four decades of devastation wrought upon the church, and the final disgrace of a hierarchy that lacked the moral courage of the Boy Scouts to keep the perverts out of the seminaries, and throw them out of the rectories and schools of Holy Mother Church.


Through the papacy of Pius XII, the church resisted the clamor to accommodate itself to the world and remained a moral beacon to mankind. Since Vatican II, the church has sought to meet the world halfway.

Jones' statistics tell us the price of appeasement.

I hope the above data has helped to put some of this into proper perspective?

Thanks for reading.  :)

God Bless You!   :pray:

A Catholic Catholic  -  Father Jim
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#36
The Catholic Church rapidly secularized itself during and after Vatican II.  The same thing happened with smaller Protestant sects during those days.  The latter basically are dead now.  The Catholic Church has declined drastically but has endured to some extent because of a large initial base as well as immigration.  Liberal Catholic dioceses really aren't much different from the Episcopal Church. 
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#37
I'm distraught at the decline of Sunday Vespers, but that happened before the Council, and few trad churches are doing anything to rectify it.
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