Why going to Mass is not Optional.
#41
(11-14-2011, 08:55 AM)Revixit Wrote:
(11-14-2011, 08:37 AM)Stubborn Wrote:
(11-14-2011, 08:32 AM)Revixit Wrote: There is no such thing as "a NO Catholic."  

I am a Catholic.  

I was attending the Mass (when there was just one form) and studying the Faith before Vatican II.

Today, I attend the Ordinary Form of the Mass because it is the only Mass available to me where I live.

You're right, there is no such thing as a NO Catholic, the NO is anti-Catholic.

You've been around long enough to see that the NOM is a parody of the True Mass so why do you not admit it?

The OF is not anti-Catholic and the OF is not "a parody of the True Mass."   

I'm not going to change my mind and you aren't going to change yours, so discussing this is a waste of time for each of us.

The "OF" teaches that we should be kissing the koran - which is, I'm sure you will agree, anti-Catholic.

That it parodies the True Mass which it replaced is obvious to those who only attend the True Mass, then compare that to the new mass. Seems those who, after only a short time get accustomed to partaking of the new mass are no longer able or wish to see it that way.
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#42
(11-14-2011, 10:18 AM)Stubborn Wrote:
(11-14-2011, 08:55 AM)Revixit Wrote:
(11-14-2011, 08:37 AM)Stubborn Wrote:
(11-14-2011, 08:32 AM)Revixit Wrote: There is no such thing as "a NO Catholic."  

I am a Catholic.  

I was attending the Mass (when there was just one form) and studying the Faith before Vatican II.

Today, I attend the Ordinary Form of the Mass because it is the only Mass available to me where I live.

You're right, there is no such thing as a NO Catholic, the NO is anti-Catholic.

You've been around long enough to see that the NOM is a parody of the True Mass so why do you not admit it?

The OF is not anti-Catholic and the OF is not "a parody of the True Mass."   

I'm not going to change my mind and you aren't going to change yours, so discussing this is a waste of time for each of us.

The "OF" teaches that we should be kissing the koran - which is, I'm sure you will agree, anti-Catholic.

That it parodies the True Mass which it replaced is obvious to those who only attend the True Mass, then compare that to the new mass. Seems those who, after only a short time get accustomed to partaking of the new mass are no longer able or wish to see it that way.

I remember when I went to my first TLM (the TRUE "Ordinary Form"), I was amazed at how different it was - it was like a different religion.  I soon came to the realization that it is a different religion because the New Mass doesn't teach true Catholicism and the TLM most assuredly does.
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#43
(11-14-2011, 06:43 AM)Stubborn Wrote:
(11-13-2011, 11:30 PM)SPB Wrote:
(11-13-2011, 03:53 PM)Petertherock Wrote: Abuses can happen at TLM's...but the NO encourages abuses.

Can you show me in the rubrics exactly where it encourages abuses? Either implicitly or explicitly.

Again, some may say, you are condemning the abuses and calling them the "New Liturgy." I am saying, what can you do about it? The "New Liturgy" permits, nay, inspires and encourages the abuses with its totally untraditionalist, ridiculous "options." It is contrary to the very idea of "ritual" that it be "optional." I am saying that with the discarding of the Missale Romanum, the Pope has undermined all authority, including his own, so that no one can prevent any and every form of sacrilege and impiety. By contradicting the idea that the Divine Liturgy was or can be fixed, he has taught that it cannot be: so, the "liturgy" now consists of anything any fool decides it to be. And if you think my logic not perfectly consistent, prove it! Let the bishops prove it; let them attempt to "regulate" the "New Liturgy;" let them begin to try to enforce Catholic Orthodoxy from their pulpits; let them try to tell their clergy what they may and may not do at their "mass." They have already found it impossible because the "New Liturgy" of its very nature makes it so. - Fr. Wathens
Where in the NO Mass cerimoniale or GIRM are those rubrics?
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#44
Dan- I'm assuming you're writing this in response to FE that don't attend the Novus Ordo mass, even when it's the only thing available?

You're addressing the wrong issue.  The reason people don't go to the Novus Ordo isn't because they don't want to go to mass, it's because they don't believe it's a Catholic Mass.  So if you want to change their minds, saying that mass isn't optional isn't going to do anything because they surely agree with that statement.

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unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
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thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
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#45
(11-14-2011, 03:25 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: Dan- I'm assuming you're writing this in response to FE that don't attend the Novus Ordo mass, even when it's the only thing available?

You're addressing the wrong issue.  The reason people don't go to the Novus Ordo isn't because they don't want to go to mass, it's because they don't believe it's a Catholic Mass.  So if you want to change their minds, saying that mass isn't optional isn't going to do anything because they surely agree with that statement.
Thank you sir.
That is correct, but we as laymen do not have the authority to say that a Form of Mass that was promulgated by a sitting Supreme Pontiff, is not Mass, I posted this in hopes that some would be humble in obedience to someone and something that is way above their paygrade.
The Mass is the Mass, and we "stinkin" laymen have not the authority to say it is not.
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#46
(11-14-2011, 03:33 PM)dan hunter Wrote:
(11-14-2011, 03:25 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: Dan- I'm assuming you're writing this in response to FE that don't attend the Novus Ordo mass, even when it's the only thing available?

You're addressing the wrong issue.  The reason people don't go to the Novus Ordo isn't because they don't want to go to mass, it's because they don't believe it's a Catholic Mass.  So if you want to change their minds, saying that mass isn't optional isn't going to do anything because they surely agree with that statement.
Thank you sir.
That is correct, but we as laymen do not have the authority to say that a Form of Mass that was promulgated by a sitting Supreme Pontiff, is not Mass, I posted this in hopes that some would be humble in obedience to someone and something that is way above their paygrade.
The Mass is the Mass, and we "stinkin" laymen have not the authority to say it is not.

It's not just "stinkin' laymen...I know I shower daily and also Priests, Bishops and Cardinal's have said it's not a Catholic Mass.

"The Ottaviani Intervention"
http://fisheaters.com/ottavianiintervention.html

Letter from Cardinals Ottaviani and Bacci to His Holiness Pope Paul VI
September 25th, 1969

Most Holy Father, Having carefully examined, and presented for the scrutiny of others, the Novus Ordo Missae prepared by the experts of the Consilium ad exequendam Constitutionem de Sacra Liturgia, and after lengthy prayer and reflection, we feel it to be our bounden duty in the sight of God and towards Your Holiness, to put before you the following considerations:

1. The accompanying critical study of the Novus Ordo Missae, the work of a group of theologians, liturgists and pastors of souls, shows quite clearly in spite of its brevity that if we consider the innovations implied or taken for granted which may of course be evaluated in different ways, the Novus Ordo represents, both as a whole and in its details, a striking departure from the Catholic theology of the Mass as it was formulated in Session XXII of the Council of Trent. The "canons" of the rite definitively fixed at that time provided an insurmountable barrier to any heresy directed against the integrity of the Mystery.

2. The pastoral reasons adduced to support such a grave break with tradition, even if such reasons could be regarded as holding good in the face of doctrinal considerations, do not seem to us sufficient. The innovations in the Novus Ordo and the fact that all that is of perennial value finds only a minor place, if it subsists at all, could well turn into a certainty the suspicions already prevalent, alas, in many circles, that truths which have always been believed by the Christian people, can be changed or ignored without infidelity to that sacred deposit of doctrine to which the Catholic faith is bound for ever. Recent reforms have amply demonstrated that fresh changes in the liturgy could lead to nothing but complete bewilderment on the part of the faithful who are already showing signs of restiveness and of an indubitable lessening of faith.

Amongst the best of the clergy the practical result is an agonising crisis of conscience of which innumerable instances come tour notice daily.

3. We are certain that these considerations, which can only reach Your Holiness by the living voice of both shepherds and flock, cannot but find an echo in Your paternal heart, always so profoundly solicitous for the spiritual needs of the children of the Church. It has always been the case that when a law meant for the good of subjects proves to be on the contrary harmful, those subjects have the right, nay the duty of asking with filial trust for the abrogation of that law.

Therefore we most earnestly beseech Your Holiness, at a time of such painful divisions and ever-increasing perils for the purity of the Faith and the unity of the church, lamented by You our common Father, not to deprive us of the possibility of continuing to have recourse to the fruitful integrity of that Missale Romanum of St. Pius V, so highly praised by Your Holiness and so deeply loved and venerated by the whole Catholic world.

A. Card. Ottaviani
A. Card. Bacci
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#47
(11-14-2011, 05:28 PM)Petertherock Wrote: It's not just "stinkin' laymen...I know I shower daily

:laughing:
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#48
I shower well daily but still stink, in my soul.
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#49
(11-14-2011, 03:33 PM)dan hunter Wrote:
(11-14-2011, 03:25 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: Dan- I'm assuming you're writing this in response to FE that don't attend the Novus Ordo mass, even when it's the only thing available?

You're addressing the wrong issue.  The reason people don't go to the Novus Ordo isn't because they don't want to go to mass, it's because they don't believe it's a Catholic Mass.  So if you want to change their minds, saying that mass isn't optional isn't going to do anything because they surely agree with that statement.
Thank you sir.
That is correct, but we as laymen do not have the authority to say that a Form of Mass that was promulgated by a sitting Supreme Pontiff, is not Mass, I posted this in hopes that some would be humble in obedience to someone and something that is way above their paygrade.
The Mass is the Mass, and we "stinkin" laymen have not the authority to say it is not.

The blind obedience you laud is actually quite sickening.  It is not "above our paygrade" to call a spade a spade.  We are not mindless robots.  Do you happen to remember what Scripture states?:

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.

This Scripture guarantees us the RIGHT to observe for ourselves as compared and contrasted to the Gospel what constitutes Catholic teaching.  As a matter of fact, this is what Tradition entails.  If the Church promoted the kind of blind obedience you promote then there would be no need for Tradition.  During times of ecclesiastical crisis in leadership we have the right, rather the responsibility, to judge what is being presented as Catholicism against the yardstick of Tradition.

When even moderate inspection of the New Mass and its effects are studied, the conclusion comes rather quickly.  It is not a Catholic Mass because it doesn't teach the Catholic Faith - even if it is valid.  Cardinals Ottaviani and Bacci both came to this conclusion, as did Archbishop Lefebvre and many other Churchmen.  Also it comes rather quickly that the New Mass fits the basic definition of "sacrilege" perfectly.  People refuse this easy conclusion because they are loathe to admit we are in an ecclesiastical crisis of tremendous magnitude, or they want to make excuses so they can remain in their parish churches because they like it there.  While it is a damn crying shame that for the most part we cannot have a normal parish life, we must concede the fact that a new religion is being installed and an imposter hierarchy is ruling from the ecclesiastical structure of the Church.  It happened once before, it can, and is, happening again.
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#50
(11-14-2011, 03:33 PM)dan hunter Wrote: Thank you sir.
That is correct, but we as laymen do not have the authority to say that a Form of Mass that was promulgated by a sitting Supreme Pontiff, is not Mass, I posted this in hopes that some would be humble in obedience to someone and something that is way above their paygrade.
The Mass is the Mass, and we "stinkin" laymen have not the authority to say it is not.

I don't understand why you post here dan. You are not a trad - trads do not promote the anti-traditional NO - and it's also against FE rules - read them sometime. If you are sincere and wish to talk and learn more about the traditional Catholic faith -fine, but you have some notion that a modernist concoction is holy - not only that, you keep harping on the first precept of the Church claiming that the modernist concoction fulfills the obligation to keep the sabbath holy - you constantly promote this modernist lie using the modernist tactic of being "obedient". Do you not realize this false obedience helped cause the crisis in the first place? Can you not see that you are falsifying the character of tradition by promoting the very thing that has proven itself to stealthily and methodically hate, slander and destroy tradition?   

You keep pumping your modernist agenda which only adds to the confusion of those folks who are already struggling with what hell to do in this crisis - a crisis that would be nonexistent if it weren't for the NO you apparently love so much that you come to a trad forum to promote the hypocrisy.

The new mass is an innovation full of novelties. THIS MAKES IT THE PARODY OF THE TRUE MASS: 1. We ask you to turn your minds once more to the liturgical innovation of the new rite of the Mass. This new rite will be introduced into our celebration of the holy Sacrifice starting from Sunday next which is the first of Advent, November 30 [in Italy]. ..............5. So what is to be done on this special and historical occasion? First of all, we must prepare ourselves. This novelty is no small thing. - Pope Paul VI

Pope St. Pius X's Pascendi (On the Doctrine of the Modernists) - yes, modernists DO have their own doctrine, we know it as the "Novus Ordo".
They [Modernists] exercise all their ingenuity in diminishing the force and falsifying the character of tradition, so as to rob it of all its weight. But for Catholics the second Council of Nicea will always have the force of law, where it condemns those who dare, after the impious fashion of heretics, to deride the ecclesiastical traditions, to invent novelties of some kind . . . or endeavour by malice or craft to overthrow any one of the legitimate traditions of the Catholic Church......................Far, far from the clergy be the love of novelty!

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