Voris Condemns Modernism Yet Praises JP II
#21
(11-16-2011, 08:12 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: All of Jackson's Voris threads should go straight to the cornfield.

Point out any falsehoods I've spoken in this thread, or in any others regarding the deafening silence of Voris on the Assisi events.
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#22
(11-16-2011, 05:15 PM)Albino_Luciani Wrote: John XXIII got the modernist ball rolling...

FTFY


(11-16-2011, 06:39 PM)aquinasg Wrote: Jackson K. Eskew, how is it modernism to have new mysteries to meditate on? Three decades is aesthetically proportional, but the Pope wanted to stimulate interest in the Rosary by providing more to think and pray about. Why don't you concentrate on real evils in the Church instead of fighting phantom boggie-men.

Because Our Lady didn't give us the "Luminous Mysteries".



(11-16-2011, 06:39 PM)aquinasg Wrote: As for the Theology of the Body, I won't even make a comment, since I would bet my last buck you haven't read it and can't even explain any of its fundamental facets

Ha! I'll wait for Walty to chime in.

Are you even a traditionalist?
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#23
(11-16-2011, 08:34 PM)aquinasg Wrote: Final words of the Theology of the Body:

Chris West probably isn't the best interpreter of it. It is certainly deep, with much to ponder whoever, and some of it may be hard to understand without having a marital relationship. Remember what St. Paul says about everyone having their own gifts (springing from their vocations).

My very good friend Fr. Thomas Rosarius pointed out to me today in a email that in Genesis Almighty God formed man out of the slim of the earth and then breathed into him a living soul. Aquinas, following Aristotle, would say that the soul is the form of the body. I hate to be so hard on Aquinas today; but the body with its psychic aptitudes has a good all to itself. Of course, in humans the soul has spiritual abilities, some of which are touched through sexuality

I must confess that I have seen little good come from the Theology of the Body. My first experience of it was through Christopher West, which probably wasn't the best introduction to it. My second experience of it was a priest giving a talk on the Theology of the Body which included the comment that "God used to want us to have many children, but now He doesn't". The third experience was a fully professed monk and priest running away from his monastery with a woman because he wanted to "live the Theology of the Body". I am not exaggerating - I had a number of conversations with this monk on the possibility of my having a religious vocation. Funnily enough, he was very hard on me for my 'attachment' to the old Mass. 

The Church has dogmatically defined that the soul is the form of the body at the Council of Vienne so this teaching cannot be dismissed as the private opinion of Aristotle and Aquinas.
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#24
(11-16-2011, 06:56 PM)Old Salt Wrote: I would say Mr Voris is spot on in this video condemning modernism, but I am still baffled at why he does not give credit where credit is due when it comes to Pope JPII in enableing modernism to spread by appointing many of the same bishops that Mr Voris condemns!
Weird!

Good point.
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#25
The Theology of the Body (I wish I could unread what I have read about it) is really silly.

One concern is it's poor presentation, emphasis on graphic explanations (this isn't JP2's fault but definitely is Chritopher West's), and so on.

But what I dislike most is that TOB makes it seem like the Church has no idea how great and special sex is until JP2 fixed all that.

As if there is no traditional teaching on sex.

There is, and the traditional teaching is sufficient, and in sex-obsessed world we don't need new stuff, we need a return to that traditional teaching, please!
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#26
CFN don't have to say the new mysterious of the rosary. But it is absurd to say others can't. The 3 decades coincide with te Pslams, but who says the Pslams along with the Rosary. It's just wrong to judge others because they want more mysteries to mediate on. Praying over the Institution of the Eucharest, the Baptism of Jesus, all good stuff. If you don't like it, don't pray it. Don't criticize your Pope beause he made a decision calculated to increase interest in the rosary.

And the Theology of the Body has nothing to do with the heresy of modernism. The way that word is thrown around here is not appropriate. As a true traditionalist, I must say the just because something is new, it doesn't make it wrong. Arostotle was considered very dangerous until Albert the Great and Aquinas came along. Geocentrism was believed by the whole Church (including almost all the Church Fathers), and taught by the Church, up until a few  centuries ago. Pius XII approved of the new historical criticism to a certain extent. Novelty. The CHurch didn't start canonizing saints until after 1000 years. Well, the old tradition of the laity proclaiming saints ceased, there was what? Novelty? The Church didn't start issueing plenary indulgence until around 1000 years after Christ? Partial indulgences sure, but the power to clear all of ones punishment with one swoop? Novelty.

Did you know that Pope Benedict XV was considered a Modernist by some in his day? Read this:
http://willingcatholicmartyr.blogspot.co...ct-xv.html

And the Pope used his ordinary Magisterial authority to teach the theology of the body. As traditionalist Pius X said:
"Do not allow yourselves to be deceived by the cunning statements of those who persistently claim to wish to be with the Church, to love the Church, to fight so that people do not leave Her...But judge them by their works. If they despise the shepherds of the Church and even the Pope, if they attempt all means of evading their authority in order to elude their directives and judgments..., then about which Church do these men mean to speak? Certainly not about that established on the foundations of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone (Eph. 2:20)." [Pope St. Pius X: Allocution of May 10, 1909]

Jackson K. Eskew, instead of hiding behind the whole internet, why don't you give us one example of heresy in the Theology of the Body, since you made the bold claim that John Paul II taught such heresy from the chair. And thanks


"The Church has dogmatically defined that the soul is the form of the body at the Council of Vienne so this teaching cannot be dismissed as the private opinion of Aristotle and Aquinas."

Well, that depends on interpretation. Aristotles thesis does not need to be accepted. But thanks for the correction

Scotus, you can't judge a teaching by the malpractices of individuals. The Theology of the Body says we are to be open to life and condemns fornication. It has done a lot of good among Catholics. There are Theology of the Body groups at many parishes, as Catholic start to learn once more what the Church teaches on sexuality.
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#27
newyorkcatholic, Chris West is one amateur from America, not John Paul II. It's silly to say that new ideas on sexuality have no place in our Church. If you have something concrete against something specific in JPII's theology, you can voice it out. But don't attack the Pope through West, don't call a Pope's serious teachings silly. 
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#28
(11-17-2011, 12:50 PM)aquinasg Wrote: As a true traditionalist, I must say....

What is a true traditionalist?
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#29
Someone who respects the Pope and his teachings. Leo XIII had some novel teachings in his day as well, but you accept them. You don't have to agree with the Pope on everything, but it is wrong not to try and appreciate what he does. Catholic Family New's attacks on his attempt to spread devotion to the Rosary, just because they like the aesthetic proportion of three decades, is shameful. Traditional morality manuals state it is a mortal sin to have contempt for ones superiors
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#30
(11-17-2011, 12:53 PM)aquinasg Wrote: newyorkcatholic, Chris West is one amateur from America, not John Paul II. It's silly to say that new ideas on sexuality have no place in our Church. If you have something concrete against something specific in JPII's theology, you can voice it out. But don't attack the Pope through West, don't call a Pope's serious teachings silly. 

West became a hugely influential amateur who is the face (or was the face) of TOB in much of the English-speaking world ... and JP2 did nothing to correct him, and that's a problem.  Also new ideas are inherently unstable, and take time and effort to learn ... they should be given when the situation warrants it.  Our situation warrants less new ideas, we are in a crisis in which people are obsessed with the new and want to throw away the old.  Why can't the Church help us recover what we've lost first?  The mere existence of TOB justifies ignoring Casti Conubii and everything the came before.

Just like the existence of the NO justifies those who oppose the TLM.

Similarly JP2 is responsible, as OldSalt mentioned, not for each random act of each bishop, but for the overal deploral episcopate we have had with so many liberal bishops who did so much damage in so many ways.
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