Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others?
(11-30-2011, 07:05 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: The Limbo of the Fathers proves no such thing.

All the elect of the Old Testament died in the hope of the Redeemer to come (necessity of right faith) but were assumed into Heaven only after Christ had descended there to preach and baptise them. Needless to say, faith in Christ is necessary to salvation so it's useless to speculate about people who are hypothetically saved in spite of their religions and in ignorance of their saviour. In fact, it's absolutely preposterous to advance the notion that there are people being saved without ever believing in Christ, the sole gateway to be reconciled to the Father and to appease His wrath.

But they did not know the person of Christ during their lives.  Having a hope of some kind of redeemer isn't the same thing.  If it were, then we could say that anyone who believes in some notion of God believes in God.

And for that matter, the Limbo of the Infants (if it exists) would contradict this as well.  Because those children who died without Baptism never knew anything about God.  OK, so they don't get to go to heaven because of their original sin, but they also don't burn in hell forever.  But no such place is theorized to exist for those who have passed the age of reason.  This seems to pose a problem for the "All those unlucky enough not to be born into a position where they know about Christ are just screwed" theory.  If that were how it worked, then logically we would conclude that those children are in hell.  But if the Limbo of the Infants does exist, it proves that there is at least one case where God does not punish those for not knowing something they could not have known.

Quote:This is the first time I come across such contorted hypothesis to explain the existence and demise of these faithless people. And yet it still fails to explain how these Indians and blacks, who never had the faith preached to them to begin with, could be "justly" damned according to your view.

It seems a far more elegant solution to me than the "roll the dice" theory.  And why would it not explain how those who never had the faith could be damned?  There are other ways to sin besides the First Commandment.  Everyone has a conscience, everyone has some sense of right and wrong, even if it is not perfectly formed.  Those people do wrong and know it, just as we do.

Quote:God's will is inscrutable.

The view that God elects souls depending upon their foreseen cooperation with His grace turns election into a misnomer and these people into the cause of their own election, putting God's "choice" utterly dependant on them to begin with. Salvation is not of the Lord, then, it's of the people.

It is still of God.  It is still the merits of Christ that redeem us.  But in order for any kind of punishment to be just, the guilty party must be guilty of his own choice.  If we are not responsible for our own damnation, then an eternity of pain is unjust.  But God is perfectly just, so we must be responsible for our own damnation.  Responsible, that is, for making the choice that results in it.  But since it is a choice between two things, we must then conclude that we are also responsible for making the choice that results in salvation.  That doesn't make us the source of salvation, nor does it make us deserving of the gift of heaven, for that is a gift freely given by God, but it does establish the justice of eternal damnation.

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Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - by cgraye - 12-01-2011, 11:56 AM

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