Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others?
(12-15-2011, 05:13 PM)randomtradguy Wrote: "...that it cannot refuse its consent..." Of course it can refuse its consent; it always retains the ability to do so. But God moves it in such a way that it infallibly cooperates. It is a mystery, but that is why we are discussing it.

"...but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema."
"Yes, again, neither Augustine nor Thomas say that it is inanimate or that it is merely passive. "

Basically, I think S. Thomas isn't necessarily agreeing with the Tridentine Canon; he is building on it.
Because, ALL the canon says it what it says. The statement about grace being irresistible is something y'all are saying, going on S. Thomas. I don't feel grace being irresistible is implied anywhere in the canon. According the view y'all are taking, I feel like you're saying man has will, but it's either God's, or God's, because He either controls it or doesn't and by not controlling it, because He COULD have controlled it, he has sovereignty over it.
I think if someone says your will in  salvation is active, but God is making it active, then that is a logical fallacy.

I maintain that the canon admits God moves our will; I believe the canon also says we can deny the movement of our will by God; I believe some here are implying we can't deny the movement of our will by God, thus disagreeing with the canon.
As for St. Thomas as the sole teacher of Catholicism, I don't see that said anywhere in any catechism; as for S. Augustine, I feel like the Church liked what he wrote about grace, but only grace, not this thing I'm calling Jansenism; and that there's no infallible teaching saying that S. Augustine is the sole doctor of grace. He is A doctor of the Church, but obviously his writings are causing conflicts to this day, so they must be confusing, hence my refusal to read the work of him or Thomas. Also, my opinion is held by the Eastern Catholics, so I can't be to far off something.
It also must be said that the things I've heard here about grace I've ONLY heard here, and nowhere else on any Catholic website. So again, I'm leaving this thread.


You do realize that the Council of Trent, in session, had a copy of the Summa Theoligica next to the Bible on the altar, right?  St. Thomas is the framework of all the canons of Trent, to the core.  Whether you think or feel they are agreeing is irrelevant to the fact that they say the same thing.

St. Thomas says close to the exact opposite of what you claim he is.  He does not say grace is irresistible, but that our freedom involves resisting or submitting to it.  That is what Trent says, that is what St. Thomas says.  They are saying the exact same thing, with pretty close to the exact same words.

And if you refuse to read the Doctors, on what grounds dare you criticize their thought, of which you remain willfully ignorant?  Nobody is required to become intimate with every thinker, and there are plenty of good non-Augustinian, non-Thomistic Christians and thinkers; but to remain ignorant on purpose and claim some sort of high ground is foolish pride.

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Re: Why do some people receive the gift of faith and not others? - by Parmandur - 12-15-2011, 05:26 PM

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