Pope Benedict XVI's astronomer: the Catholic Church welcomes aliens
#21
(12-01-2011, 03:47 AM)Parmandur Wrote:
(12-01-2011, 03:31 AM)LoneWolfRadTrad Wrote: Only humans have immortal souls.  The souls of animals die with them.  Wouldn't sentient extraterrestrials qualify as smart animals, but animals nonetheless?

That, and there's just no proof for the existence of smart ET's.  No reason to believe there aren't animals in space though. 

The soul is immortal because it is rational, and therefore immaterial, like the Angels.  For the sake of argument, because this is silly, let us assume that Vulcans or Wookies are abstracting immaterial concepts to the point being able to build spaceships.  This is rationality, and immaterial, like Men and Angels.  If such a thing were found, another kind of rational animal, then it would make rational animal a genus instead of a species.

Alright then.  I forget all the little details like these.

Lets assume they aren't rational, then.  Just space animals.
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#22
(12-01-2011, 12:42 PM)Tim Wrote: Would God Almighty be obliged to tell us of another race He created, which did not fall, and that we could never travel be able to travel and visit them ?  I mean this is pure speculation on all levels without any evidence pro or con.

tim

We know about the legions of the Angelic and Demonic, which we can't even see.

I really don't see any evidence that would point to God creating other races similar to humans on far away planets.

I think it's much more likely that any "species" we encountered would simply be a demonic illusion.
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#23
(12-01-2011, 08:08 AM)maso Wrote:
(12-01-2011, 06:27 AM)Laetare Wrote: The laws of causality, plausibility, non-contradiction, and identity do not put the notion out of reach. Look at the size of our Galaxy alone - 100 000 light years from side to side. One light year is about 6 000 billion/6 trillion miles, you know? Even if we were to reach the speed of light (a comical idea given our current technology), it would take 30 000 years, without delay or slow-down (i.e. with an infinite energy source) to reach the center of our own galaxy from Earth.

Now, look at the hundreds of billions of galaxies beyond our own. Each one of those in total must contain hundreds of trillions of planets. Looking at the odds of our own solar system, it seems likely that there are millions of Earth-size planets around Sol-sized stars. Given the variety of life that has arisen on Earth through God's providence, what else might live on those planets? To say the no life could possibly have been sustained anywhere except Earth is rather queer, given the scope of our Cosmos.

There are worlds beyond imagination outside even our own local cluster of 4-5 galactic structures. Beyond those, far beyond, are even bigger clusters that could hold endless Earth-like planets and climates. Look: all the stars and shiny things we see in the sky are within our own galaxy! Their proximity to us makes them outshine the countless other entities beyond the glare of our own spiral. Simple causality does work its way... and to imagine that nothing of import has happened on all those planets for 15 billion+ years is laughable.

Of course, theology demands that any life on those planets be without a soul. The Creed says "for us men and for our salvation", God descended from Heaven and became incarnate of man. If there are aliens with souls to be saved, the Creed (and thus the infallible Church) are wrong. The hypostatic union must be wrong. After this, what is left? All crumbles to bits. The only way to rectify it would be to say "for us sentients and for our salvation..." :P


All this stuff about extraterrestrial life is nothing but absurd speculation. Since until now no evidence has been observed, it is a loss of time. Does Br Consolmagno's interest in that matter serve for the highest Glory of God? I doubt it.
If there were ever purported aliens to encounter the mankind in the next future, the outcomes would be huge, so huge that I cannot imagine that God in His Wisdom wouldn't have warned us of this in the Scriptures.
No, on the contrary, I believe that the purported "flying saucers" and other UFOs manifestations that we cannot dismiss anyways, are very suspicious. I don't remember who is this  jewish author who considers them as pure devilish deceits.
See: http://thecomingepiphany.com/BookArticle....htm#_ftn3

Interesting conversation we're having.  

Demons and their agents amongst humanity would indeed conspire such things.  There's rumors that the military industrial complex have amongst their plans a fake alien invasion to be used as an excuse to form a centralized military dictatorship over the Earth.  

Supposedly, this is all to be accomplished through the use of holographic projectors that can place images on the sky.  There's even talk that the images won't just include alien invaders, but false gods who will point to a false messiah.  "Project Blue Beam" is what everyone's been calling it.  

False miracles and false invaders for the purposes of faithless humans who would have the rest of humanity worship obey them, even more so than now.

For our own protection, of course.  :LOL:
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#24
(12-01-2011, 01:12 PM)LoneWolfRadTrad Wrote:
(12-01-2011, 08:08 AM)maso Wrote:
(12-01-2011, 06:27 AM)Laetare Wrote: The laws of causality, plausibility, non-contradiction, and identity do not put the notion out of reach. Look at the size of our Galaxy alone - 100 000 light years from side to side. One light year is about 6 000 billion/6 trillion miles, you know? Even if we were to reach the speed of light (a comical idea given our current technology), it would take 30 000 years, without delay or slow-down (i.e. with an infinite energy source) to reach the center of our own galaxy from Earth.

Now, look at the hundreds of billions of galaxies beyond our own. Each one of those in total must contain hundreds of trillions of planets. Looking at the odds of our own solar system, it seems likely that there are millions of Earth-size planets around Sol-sized stars. Given the variety of life that has arisen on Earth through God's providence, what else might live on those planets? To say the no life could possibly have been sustained anywhere except Earth is rather queer, given the scope of our Cosmos.

There are worlds beyond imagination outside even our own local cluster of 4-5 galactic structures. Beyond those, far beyond, are even bigger clusters that could hold endless Earth-like planets and climates. Look: all the stars and shiny things we see in the sky are within our own galaxy! Their proximity to us makes them outshine the countless other entities beyond the glare of our own spiral. Simple causality does work its way... and to imagine that nothing of import has happened on all those planets for 15 billion+ years is laughable.

Of course, theology demands that any life on those planets be without a soul. The Creed says "for us men and for our salvation", God descended from Heaven and became incarnate of man. If there are aliens with souls to be saved, the Creed (and thus the infallible Church) are wrong. The hypostatic union must be wrong. After this, what is left? All crumbles to bits. The only way to rectify it would be to say "for us sentients and for our salvation..." :P


All this stuff about extraterrestrial life is nothing but absurd speculation. Since until now no evidence has been observed, it is a loss of time. Does Br Consolmagno's interest in that matter serve for the highest Glory of God? I doubt it.
If there were ever purported aliens to encounter the mankind in the next future, the outcomes would be huge, so huge that I cannot imagine that God in His Wisdom wouldn't have warned us of this in the Scriptures.
No, on the contrary, I believe that the purported "flying saucers" and other UFOs manifestations that we cannot dismiss anyways, are very suspicious. I don't remember who is this  jewish author who considers them as pure devilish deceits.
See: http://thecomingepiphany.com/BookArticle....htm#_ftn3

Interesting conversation we're having.  

Demons and their agents amongst humanity would indeed conspire such things.  There's rumors that the military industrial complex have amongst their plans a fake alien invasion to be used as an excuse to form a centralized military dictatorship over the Earth.  

Supposedly, this is all to be accomplished through the use of holographic projectors that can place images on the sky.  There's even talk that the images won't just include alien invaders, but false gods who will point to a false messiah.  "Project Blue Beam" is what everyone's been calling it.  

False miracles and false invaders for the purposes of faithless humans who would have the rest of humanity worship obey them, even more so than now.

For our own protection, of course.  :LOL:


Yes I remember of an interesting study that pointed to the fact that a great part of the UFOs sightings were made during the last hours of the night, early after midnight. Their theory was that many among those who actually are witnessing UFOS manifestations often are found among the night time revellers, people with sinful activities, nightclubs employees, prostitutes, drug dealers, occultists, drunkards, etc... all men or women prone to swallow the devil's deceits.
I don't despair to find it again
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#25
if they bleed we can killthem

perhaps this is the opportunity for the church and Catholics to pull out another Cortes!!
wait a s second
aliens don't exist so.................
how about converting Mohammedan sand Jews....................................
oh right oops
we don't do that anymore so aliens sure
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#26
(12-01-2011, 12:30 PM)Crusading Philologist Wrote:
St. Augustine Wrote:It is also asked whether we are to believe that certain monstrous races of men, spoken of in secular history,  have sprung from Noah’s sons, or rather, I should say, from that one man from whom they themselves were descended. For it is reported that some have one eye in the middle of the forehead; some, feet turned backwards from the heel; some, a double sex, the right breast like a man, the left like a woman, and that they alternately beget and bring forth: others are said to have no mouth, and to breathe only through the nostrils; others are but a cubit high, and are therefore called by the Greeks “Pigmies:”  they say that in some places the women conceive in their fifth year, and do not live beyond their eighth. So, too, they tell of a race who have two feet but only one leg, and are of marvellous swiftness, though they do not bend the knee: they are called Skiopodes, because in the hot weather they lie down on their backs and shade themselves with their feet. Others are said to have no head, and their eyes in their shoulders; and other human or quasi-human races are depicted in mosaic in the harbor esplanade of Carthage, on the faith of histories of rarities. What shall I say of the Cynocephali, whose dog-like head and barking proclaim them beasts rather than men? But we are not bound to believe all we hear of these monstrosities. But whoever is anywhere born a man, that is, a rational, mortal animal, no matter what unusual appearance he presents in color, movement, sound, nor how peculiar he is in some power, part, or quality of his nature, no Christian can doubt that he springs from that one protoplast. We can distinguish the common human nature from that which is peculiar, and therefore wonderful.

Going off St. Augustine here, it would seem that one could easily argue that any intelligent aliens that we were to find could be saved through the Church since they would be rational mortal animals.

On the other hand, it would seem to endanger the view of humanity that we find in some of the Fathers. For example, St. Athanasius thought that God had chosen the design of our bodies with the Incarnation in mind. He specifically chose a form that would be fitting for his Son to inhabit, so, in a certain sense, the Image of God in man extends beyond just our intelligence to even our physical appearance. I suppose in such a situation we could still say that man has some special place even if he is not alone.

Here's some more relevant St. Augustine:

St. Augustine Wrote:But as to the fable that there are Antipodes, that is to say, men on the opposite side of the earth, where the sun rises when it sets to us, men who walk with their feet opposite ours, that is on no ground credible.  And, indeed, it is not affirmed that this has been learned by historical knowledge, but by scientific conjecture, on the ground that the earth is suspended within the concavity of the sky, and that it has as much room on the one side of it as on the other:  hence they say that the part which is beneath must also be inhabited.  But they do not remark that, although it be supposed or scientifically demonstrated that the world is of a round and spherical form, yet it does not follow that the other side of the earth is bare of water; nor even, though it be bare, does it immediately follow that it is peopled.  For Scripture, which proves the truth of its historical statements by the accomplishment of its prophecies, gives no false information; and it is too absurd to say, that some men might have taken ship and traversed the whole wide ocean, and crossed from this side of the world to the other, and that thus even the inhabitants of that distant region are descended from that one first man.  Wherefore let us seek if we can find the city of God that sojourns on earth among those human races who are catalogued as having been divided into seventy-two nations and as many languages.  For it continued down to the deluge and the ark, and is proved to have existed still among the sons of Noah by their blessings, and chiefly in the eldest son Shem; for Japheth received this blessing, that he should dwell in the tents of Shem.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf102.iv.XVI.9.html

This seems like a wise policy, though, as it turns out, the Antipodes *were* inhabited after all.
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#27
(12-01-2011, 03:38 AM)K3vinhood Wrote:
(12-01-2011, 03:31 AM)LoneWolfRadTrad Wrote: That, and there's just no proof for the existence of smart ET's.  No reason to believe there aren't animals in space though. 

Why would God make animals wander about in space?

Were not animals created for men? Does man not have dominion over all the beasts?

Why would God make animals wander about in the deepest sea beyond our reach (except for very recent technology that barely observes them)?

Why would God make bacteria that we couldn't observe until the discovery of relatively recent instruments?
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#28
If you want to see an alien all you have to do is look into the mirror.

We don't really seem to fit in here, now do we? We have no fur to keep us warm, we have to build our own abodes, we must plant and cultivate our food. Of course God provides us with everything we need. But as our Lord says the sparrow does not gather into barns and yet the Father feeds them.

This is our pilgrimage on the way to our true home. Our heavenly home. Why not truly speculate and meditate on that, and believe that? For those who have, no sermon intended. But, based on personal experience I can attest that these teachings are not hard to gloss over. Even when believed.

But then again, I try to keep things simple. However, before I was returned to simple and childlike Faith, I had to go through the "college of complexity". I doubt I graduated, but God help me that I have ascended my thoughts above this "college".

As an aside, while thinking of this thread the thought occured to me that Science Fiction is out there to pull people into the idea that the Mysteries of the Faith are fiction. It also opens the door to all sorts of wild ideas about our origen and Creation.

It also exists, IMHO, to be a juxtaposition to Science Fact. Which to my mind is simply a more believable form of Science Fiction.
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#29
None of this has to do with UFOs and other silly 'sightings' and theories of aliens building the pyramids. It's a question that involves looking far into the depths of space. Are we meant to go searching? Our Lord said we must preach to all creatures, an interesting command. Hmmm :)
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#30
(12-01-2011, 02:38 PM)Laetare Wrote: None of this has to do with UFOs and other silly 'sightings' and theories of aliens building the pyramids. It's a question that involves looking far into the depths of space. Are we meant to go searching? Our Lord said we must preach to all creatures, an interesting command. Hmmm :)

All "creatures" ... where did He say that?
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