This is what obedience looks like
#38
(12-05-2011, 02:55 AM)INPEFESS Wrote: How is it possible that a liturgy can be, in effect, "less Catholic" than another if it approved by the Catholic Church guided by the Holy Ghost to safeguard us agains the errors that threaten the Church?

I don't know.  I suppose because the Holy Ghost allows things to happen in the Church here on earth as trials for its members.  He allowed the Orthodox schism to happen, and the Protestant heresy, and now this (whatever Church historians may call it in centuries to come...).

In any case, it's "less" Catholic only because it isn't as explicit as the TLM.  A priest who offers the NO with the right understanding and intention offers the re-presentation of Our Lord's Holy Sacrifice to the Father; I think it's entirely Catholic in its essence.

INPEFESS Wrote:I do not believe that the post-Vatican II magisterium speaks on behalf of the Catholic Church; nor do I believe that the Novus Ordo Mass is identical with the Catholic Mass according to the teachings of the Council of Trent; nor do I believe that the form of religion promoted by the Novus Ordo program of reform is the same religion as the Catholic religion. Coming to terms with these realities is harsh, but, in the end, reality must be faced for what it is. To accept a compromise between the way these two structures conduct themselves is to undo everything the Church was founded to do.

Thanks for explaining yourself.  I guess I don't see a compromise because I agree with the Pope that VII documents can be interpreted in a way consistent with tradition and that the NO is not inherently sinful, though in practice the NO is typically offered in ways that I think are unacceptable.  Indeed, sometimes it's offered in ways that are downright sinful (and if there are fewer graces being received by those who assist at such Masses, it helps explain why so many have fallen away in recent decades.)

Nic Wrote:Because it is the Mass that teaches us our religion, it is the highest form of prayer - and the Novus Ordo Mass is the way that the vast majority of professed Catholics pray these days.  Remember, the way we pray is the way we believe.  When the Novus Ordo Mass is the way we pray, the way we believe shows through very clearly.  As Archbishop Lefebvre stated, the New Mass makes Protestants.  Why is that?  Because the New Mass teaches Protestantism.

Nic, it is not just the Mass that teaches us our religion.  I think somebody that tries to learn Catholicism just from the TLM might end up as confused as the poor Protestants who try to learn the faith just from the Bible.  The NO can be made to teach Protestantism, due to its omissions and vagaries, but it does not have to be so.  As GraceSeeker (and the OP) point out, there are good priests offering the NO, who know what Catholicism is all about, and there are good faithful Catholics who have managed to hang on to the proper understanding of the faith in the face of the chaos all around them.  It isn't easy for any of these people, but it's possible.  I think the Holy Ghost has allowed this trial to determine who will "stay faithful to the end".

Again from GraceSeeker:

GraceSeeker Wrote:After all, the generation that jettisoned the Tridentine rite and passed on such poor catechesis to their children were formed on the Extraordinary Form.  They were praying beautifully but it didn't take root in their souls or intellect.  They had the best Mass and still screwed things up.

Indeed, it's been proven that the best Mass is not a cure-all.  There were many people in the Church who had been espousing modernist heresies long before the NO was ever dreamt up.  Otherwise, why would Pius IX have drafted the Syllabus of Errors and Saint Pius X have drafted the Oath Against Modernism?  There were lots of problems in the Church leading up to VII, which was just an "excuse" of sorts for people to start doing really destructive things.

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Messages In This Thread
Re: This is what obedience looks like - by Nic - 12-05-2011, 07:54 AM
Re: This is what obedience looks like - by maso - 12-05-2011, 08:30 AM
Re: This is what obedience looks like - by AlphaOmega - 12-05-2011, 04:10 PM
Re: This is what obedience looks like - by Nic - 12-06-2011, 05:28 PM
Re: This is what obedience looks like - by Nic - 12-06-2011, 10:40 PM



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