Robert Sungenis, Was God Behind the Ambiguities of Vatican II
#21
Gerard, I firmly believe that if enough of us actually became a movement, we could a) change the minds of popes, or b) they would no longer fear appearing to swim against the tide of the so-called "spirit" that has highjacked the Church. But, at the same time I will freely admit that I could be the most naïve of optimists.
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#22
I do not believe that. Even if the trad movement became twice this size and in some loose confederation of groups..this mess is not something we can fix. The solution was given to us and it has been rejected so far. Sungenis is only one of the latest to have come to this conclusion. Socci, a very well known and trusted  NO Catholic argued it was hogwash, but took up the challenge to disprove Fr. Gruner. He is now a Fatimaista, and has argued openly with Cardinal Bertone over it, asking him who is the liar me or you ? Pope Benedict XVI has said Fatima's prophecy is in the future, and admitted he might have to plan for the Consecration in the future. We can not out fox God Almighty. He offered a way to fix this and extended His mercy with a promise of a period of peace. We in effect told Him, no thanks, we're like Israel we'll fix it ourselves. He said go for it and gave us all the rope we need to hang ourselves, tha's Vatican II. Moreover when the date passes for His request, either 2017 or 2029,  we'll see real Chastiement not this piddly stuff we're experiencing. S. Sr. Lucia said it would involve annihilation of Nations and that hasn't happened yet.

tim
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#23
I did not imply that we can fix it, by having SSPX join ranks in whatever full union with Rome means. Which could happen if they agree  to view VII in the Light of Tradition. Which is the way Councils have always been viewed, by the way. The longer they stay away, the easier it is for the libs to keep viewing it in the diabolical spirit of anything goes.

That would be a start. Actually a very good start. This may help bishop selection in the future for which an action you propose may actually be said with lips without guile or deceit or outright mockery.

As far as Benedict, and that the message might have something to do with the future, I don't see that he said that. And if he did he is even more Hegelian than I first suspected. Or maybe he has seen the movie Back to the Future one too many times. Makes no sense.

If I remember correctly, I think he said something on the plane on his way to Fatima last year about the message being relevant for our time. You have something else I might have missed, I'm all ears.
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#24
You've got it right, he said it is currently unfolding. On that same plane trip he was asked if he intended to Consecrate Russia, and he said he has no plans immediately but posssibly he may in the future.

Not to poke anyone in the eye. I'm four square on a return to Tradition. But if we look at the success of the SSPX in seminarians or priests ordained compared to those figures from before Vatican II. They do not indicate a quick return to Tradition. Certainly they knock the socks off of current vocations in the Church.

When Quigley closed here in Chicago I read an article on them. Before the changes they'd graduate about 400 each year with one half going to the Seminary, figuring a fall off of half again that'd be 100 new priests a year.

tim
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#25
Well here's the other thing. However misguided the "experts" were at Vatican II, one cannot say they were dumb. As you say, it is a slow return to Tradition.

Could it be possible that the modernists sensing a modern world, thought a modification of the Mass was the only way to save the Faith? I am not defending them, nor am I advocating it. I'm just asking the question. Did they see a Church dying in the modern age and that this was their recipie to save it?

I have always been the guy swimming against the stream. Where ever the crowd moves, I tend to go in the opposite direction. Well, that would be the majority of us here, in some degree or the other. Of course there will be differences in gradation due to age, personal experience, etc.

When our Lord asked, "when the Son of Man returns to earth, will he still find Faith?", I don't think He was just trying to fill up space in the Bible.
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#26
Adam, I've thought similarly. I can see where it might be. That's one of the reasons I fall back on this mess not being fixed by men. Surely Pope Leo XIII's vision had it right.

tim 
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#27
This reminds me of a paper I read years ago called, I Gave Them a Liturgy That was Not Good

http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/inde...027.0.html FWIW
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#28
Residuum that dovetails well with the article.

tim
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#29
If anyone wants to read the entire paper, it's here on the wayback machine. http://web.archive.org/web/2007101214561....asp?id=69
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#30
The video by Sungeis and the article from Lumengentlemen have shed more light without heat than I don't how many "weighty debates" I've read here.

tim
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