Robert Sungenis, Was God Behind the Ambiguities of Vatican II
#31
(12-22-2011, 01:51 PM)ResiduumRevertetur Wrote: If anyone wants to read the entire paper, it's here on the wayback machine. http://web.archive.org/web/2007101214561....asp?id=69
Thank you so much for this. I had never seen this article. Now i must spend some time thinking.
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#32
(12-22-2011, 11:16 AM)Tim Wrote: Adam, I've thought similarly. I can see where it might be. That's one of the reasons I fall back on this mess not being fixed by men. Surely Pope Leo XIII's vision had it right.

tim 

I just finished praying Psalm 136 in Vespers. I have come to the conclusion that we are in a new type of captivity.

Thanks for telling me you have thought similarily and that it might be. I was worried it may sound a bit nutty. 

Quote:[1] Upon the rivers of Babylon, there we sat and wept: when we remembered Sion: [2] On the willows in the midst thereof we hung up our instruments. [3] For there they that led us into captivity required of us the words of songs. And they that carried us away, said: Sing ye to us a hymn of the songs of Sion. [4] How shall we sing the song of the Lord in a strange land? [5] If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand be forgotten.

[6] Let my tongue cleave to my jaws, if I do not remember thee: If I make not Jerusalem the beginning of my joy. [7] Remember, O Lord, the children of Edom, in the day of Jerusalem: Who say: Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof. [8] O daughter of Babylon, miserable: blessed shall he be who shall repay thee thy payment which thou hast paid us. [9] Blessed be he that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock.

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#33
Me too, I recited the '60 Vespera to night. I love the rhythm of that psalm in Latin.

136:1 Super flúmina Babylónis, illic sédimus et flévimus: * cum recordarémur Sion:
136:2 In salícibus in médio eius, * suspéndimus órgana nostra.
136:3 Quia illic interrogavérunt nos, qui captívos duxérunt nos, * verba cantiónum:
136:4 Et qui abduxérunt nos: * Hymnum cantáte nobis de cánticis Sion.
136:5 Quómodo cantábimus cánticum Dómini * in terra aliéna?
136:6 Si oblítus fúero tui, Ierúsalem, * oblivióni detur déxtera mea.
136:7 Adhæreat lingua mea fáucibus meis, * si non memínero tui:
136:8 Si non proposúero Ierúsalem, * in princípio lætítiæ meæ.
136:9 Memor esto, Dómine, filiórum Edom, * in die Ierúsalem:
136:10 Qui dicunt: Exinaníte, exinaníte * usque ad fundaméntum in ea.
136:11 Fília Babylónis mísera: * beátus, qui retríbuet tibi retributiónem tuam, quam retribuísti nobis.
136:12 Beátus, qui tenébit, * et allídet párvulos tuos ad petram.

tim

ps; we always need to question our assumptions
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#34
(12-22-2011, 10:30 PM)Tim Wrote: Me too, I recited the '60 Vespera to night. I love the rhythm of that psalm in Latin.

136:1 Super flúmina Babylónis, illic sédimus et flévimus: * cum recordarémur Sion:
136:2 In salícibus in médio eius, * suspéndimus órgana nostra.
136:3 Quia illic interrogavérunt nos, qui captívos duxérunt nos, * verba cantiónum:
136:4 Et qui abduxérunt nos: * Hymnum cantáte nobis de cánticis Sion.
136:5 Quómodo cantábimus cánticum Dómini * in terra aliéna?
136:6 Si oblítus fúero tui, Ierúsalem, * oblivióni detur déxtera mea.
136:7 Adhæreat lingua mea fáucibus meis, * si non memínero tui:
136:8 Si non proposúero Ierúsalem, * in princípio lætítiæ meæ.
136:9 Memor esto, Dómine, filiórum Edom, * in die Ierúsalem:
136:10 Qui dicunt: Exinaníte, exinaníte * usque ad fundaméntum in ea.
136:11 Fília Babylónis mísera: * beátus, qui retríbuet tibi retributiónem tuam, quam retribuísti nobis.
136:12 Beátus, qui tenébit, * et allídet párvulos tuos ad petram.

tim

ps; we always need to question our assumptions

Of course. I don't know if in your version you also prayed the Psalm for Unity last evensong. But, it really struck me as I was praying Vespers last night. This idea that perhaps we are being held captive in a new way these days. Of course God allowed the meandering of mission and the ambiguities to reside in the documents. That is a given, for if he did not allow it, it could not happen. Or He does not exist.

All things are possible with God. Is it possible that he allowed his Holy Church to go to sleep for a little while in order to protect it from further damage? Is it possible that the greatest enemy we have is ourselves fighting and pointing fingers at one another, not realizing we are as captive as the Israelites in Babylon of which Jeremias wrote in his Lamentations?

Is it possible that we do not see the box the world and Satan and other enemies of the Church have put us in? That there may in fact be a larger one in which are squabbles with each other are in the smaller box and wholly contained theiren? And not seeing it, we fight among ourselves to the detriment of our own souls? Because we are brethren that have been divided and conquered? How can we offer the Sacrifice of the Mass and the Sacrifice of Praise in a "Strange Land"?

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#35
I just looked up Psalm 136 in the Doauy of 1609. The commentary in the Challoner, while not incorrect, is completely inadequete in explaining it. This may take a couple of posts, so please bear with me.

1. Upon the rivers of Babylon, there we sat and wept: whiles we remembered Sion.
(near the rivers in Chaldea, wherof Babylon was the head city, the Jews remained mourning, remembering the Holy rites and service of God, which had been in Sion, wherof they were deprived in the captivity.)

2. On the willows in the midst therof, we hanged up our instruments.
(all their musical instruments, as having no use of them.)

3. Because they that led us captive, demanded of us words of songs.
(Either in earnest or in scorn the Chaldees willed them to sing as they were accustomed in their country.)
And they that led us away: Sing ye an hymn to us of the Songs of Sion.

4. How shall we sing the song of our Lord in a strange land?
(They excused themselves, and refused to sing sacred Psalms before profane people, neither had they mind to sing in that mournful state of captivity.)

5. If I shall forget thee o Jerusalem, let my right hand be forgotten.
(The people show not only their fervent desire to serve God in Jerusalem, but also their firm purpose still to desire the same, wishing that if they forget it, or lose this affection, their right hands, or whatsoever is most dear, or necessary for them, may be forgotten, not conserved, but suffered to perish.)

...to be cont.
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#36
continued analysis of Psalm 136.

6. Let my tongue cleave to my jaws, if I do not remember thee:
(If I lose this affection, let me also lose the use of my tongue)
If I shall not set Jerusalem in the beginning of my joy.

7. Be mindful o Lord, of the children of Edom, in the day of Jerusalem:
(The Indumeans incensed the Chaldees to be cruel against the Jews, whereof they pray for just revenge, and with all the Psalmist prophyseith that it will be revenged, which Isais also prophyseith, ch. 21, v. 11, for their rejoicing in Jerusalem's misery. That say "Raise it, Raise it, even unto the foundation thereof. This being the voice of the Indumeans, inciting the Babylonians utterly to destroy Jerusalem.)

8. Daughter of Babylon miserable: blessed is he, that shall repay thee thy payment, which thou hast payed us.
(A prophecy that the people of Bablyon should also be punished, for their cruelty to the Jews, wherof Isais likewise prophyseith, c.13)

9. Blessed is he that shall hold and shall dash thy little ones against the rock.
(God will bless, or reward them that shall severely afflict the Babylonians, not sparing their children. Morally he is blessed, that mortifieith his own passions, cutteth off first ill motions, or punnisheth venial sins, that they grow not strong within his soul, and so draw it to commit mortal sin, says, S. Augustine & S. Gregory.)
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#37
Comapre with the single not found in Challoner's revised Douay:
Quote:9] Dash thy little ones: In the spiritual sense, we dash the little ones of Babylon against the rock, when we mortify our passions, and stifle the first motions of them, by a speedy recourse to the rock which is Christ.



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#38
So what does this all mean to me, and why did I go to the trouble to translate the archaic English into modern to try and make my point, and further develop my thesis?

1) The Peace of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ must first be found within our own souls. This cannot be done by bickering amongst our friends.

2) We must reclaim this unity in Peace through Christ among all Traditionally minded Catholics. Pax + Domini sit + semper + vobisucm.

3) From there we must convert the entire world.

This in no way negates, nor disputes, the idea that supernatural means must be necessary to accomplish these tasks. Consecration of Russia, etc.

Merry Christmas to all my friends here.
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#39
ResidiuumReverteter states at
Reply #26 on: December 22, 2011, 12:14:PM
"This [Robert Sungenis, Was God Behind the Ambiguities of Vatican II] reminds me of a paper I read years ago called, I Gave Them a Liturgy That was Not Good."  Later he gives the link to same as http://web.archive.org/web/2007101214561....asp?id=69.

Please note that the paper referred to was authored by one Jacob Michael who was employed by Robert Sungenis.  It was from Dr. Sungenis that Mr. Michael got the idea for his paper.  Unfortunately, credit was not properly given for same.

James Phillips 
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#40
(01-01-2012, 04:20 PM)KLASG4EVER Wrote: ResidiuumReverteter states at
Reply #26 on: December 22, 2011, 12:14:PM
"This [Robert Sungenis, Was God Behind the Ambiguities of Vatican II] reminds me of a paper I read years ago called, I Gave Them a Liturgy That was Not Good."  Later he gives the link to same as http://web.archive.org/web/2007101214561....asp?id=69.

Please note that the paper referred to was authored by one Jacob Michael who was employed by Robert Sungenis.   It was from Dr. Sungenis that Mr. Michael got the idea for his paper.  Unfortunately, credit was not properly given for same.

James Phillips 
Interesting. Thanks for the information.
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