12th Imam, Shiites, Mahmound A.
#11
(12-26-2011, 10:15 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: Very good post, Vlad.

I'm pleasantly surprised by your knowledge of Islam.

I take the phrase "know thy enemy," seriously and I have a somewhat large interest in religion in general and the so called Abrahamic faiths in particular.

(12-26-2011, 10:43 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: I am calling BS on these predictions being made in the Middle Ages by Muslims. 

What I listed is from a book titled Nawaib Dahoor Alaim Zuhoor by Hassan Mir Jahaani. It contains 10.000 Shi'a Twelver hadiths from the 12 imams and was composed using older Shi'a Twelver hadiths that date back to 941 AD and so on. As to their authenticity, I'm not sure and I don't know much about it. It's really no wonder that this would not be mentioned much by most Muslims considering the Shi'a themselves only make up 10% or there abouts of the total Muslim community and the Sunni regard them as heretics and their in-fighting is somewhat similar to Protestants and us.
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#12
Actually, the first time I heard about those prophecies was at a Sunni Mosque once, so they're not exclusively Shia.

I guess these prophecies are not very well known in the West because Muslims don't get much good press around here, especially after 9/11. But almost all sites of Islamic propaganda have them, as well as the renowned "miracles" of the Qur'an or photos of nature "worshipping" God in Islamic postures, etc.
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#13
This is a fascinating topic and I thank the arguers. Now, based on the facts as laid out(taking them into consideration), what is the thinking of Mahmoud Amadinejhad? Does he believe he and his people fit into these prophecies? That is, do they play a role in bringing them about? Again, please nevermind the 'expert' who was on O'Reilly or a non peer reviewed/unscholarly work( ergo propaganda hit piece) produced at the American Enterprise Institute.
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#14
(12-27-2011, 12:00 PM)Heinrich Wrote: This is a fascinating topic and I thank the arguers. Now, based on the facts as laid out(taking them into consideration), what is the thinking of Mahmoud Amadinejhad? Does he believe he and his people fit into these prophecies? That is, do they play a role in bringing them about? Again, please nevermind the 'expert' who was on O'Reilly or a non peer reviewed/unscholarly work( ergo propaganda hit piece) produced at the American Enterprise Institute.

What he thinks doesn't matter. He's no where close to be being the most important man in Iran. My view of the Iranian regime is that they are rational and not suicidal. They will happily support terrorists and mess around in the region, but not at the cost of their own country. In that regard they are similar to the Soviets, a threat but not a country willing to destroy itself in war over its beliefs.
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#15
(12-27-2011, 01:58 PM)Someone1776 Wrote:
(12-27-2011, 12:00 PM)Heinrich Wrote: This is a fascinating topic and I thank the arguers. Now, based on the facts as laid out(taking them into consideration), what is the thinking of Mahmoud Amadinejhad? Does he believe he and his people fit into these prophecies? That is, do they play a role in bringing them about? Again, please nevermind the 'expert' who was on O'Reilly or a non peer reviewed/unscholarly work( ergo propaganda hit piece) produced at the American Enterprise Institute.

What he thinks doesn't matter. He's no where close to be being the most important man in Iran. My view of the Iranian regime is that they are rational and not suicidal. They will happily support terrorists and mess around in the region, but not at the cost of their own country. In that regard they are similar to the Soviets, a threat but not a country willing to destroy itself in war over its beliefs.

Interesting to hear you say this. This most definitely flies in the face of the average neocon's conventional wisdom. Not implicating mind you, but one does not hear this too much in serious discourse. And I am not sure they are the ones supporting terrorists as state policy. If anyone has a state implemented policy of terrorism, it's the U, uh, here, I'll let article speak for itself:

The Terror War on Iran
December 16, 2011   admin
CIA RQ-170 “Sentinel” Drone

By Richard Walker

For years, a secret war of assassinations and bombings has been directed from Washington and Tel Aviv at Iran, with no public admission that U.S. Special Forces, the CIA, the National Security Agency and Israeli intelligence have been deeply involved. The reason Barack Obama, like his predecessor, George W. Bush, has been unwilling to take responsibility for America’s role in this dirty war is that he has approved the very terror tactics D.C. so often likes to condemn when they are used by other nations.

Israel has also refused to admit its role because it would once again highlight Israel’s flagrant disregard for international law. A few independent media outlets like AMERICAN FREE PRESS could then force Washington to address what is being done in America’s name with the help of Israeli assassins and hired terrorists.

Terrorists trained and paid to kill Iranians have come from two groups operating inside and on the borders of Iran. One is the People’s Mujahedin of Iran or MEK, a dissident Iranian organization that had been based for more than a decade at a camp in Iraq protected by the U.S. military. The other is the Soldiers of God, or Jundullah, a Taliban-type militia from Pakistan. These groups are not only anti-Iranian and anti-Shiite Muslim, they’ve also engaged in the mass killing of Iranians at prayer. Many of Jundullah’s fighters were educated in Sunni religious schools funded by the Saudis and the CIA. Pakistan has warned Washington and Israel they are playing a dangerous game training and hiring Jundullah killers.

A major feature of this secret dirty war has been an assassination campaign by hit teams from Israel’s spy agency, Mossad. They have murdered and kidnapped leading figures in Iran’s nuclear industry, with the help of British and U.S. intelligence agencies. In January 2010, a booby-trapped motorcycle exploded outside the home of Iranian physicist Massoud Ali Mohammdi, killing him. Another scientist was poisoned. Mossad is notorious for using toxins that shut down the body’s main organs. Other acts against Iran have included the bombing of military facilities.

The most notable face of the war has been the use of cyber weapons to infect computers in Iran’s nuclear industry. Experts believe that U.S. and Israeli scientists built these weapons, which included the now-infamous Stuxnet virus. Their use has opened up the real possibility that other nations, including Iran, could deploy similar weapons against U.S. hi-tech infrastructure.

THE PSYOPS WAR

The aim of psychological operations warfare, or psyops as it is known within the military-industrial complex, is to instill fear and uncertainty in an enemy’s ranks through a cleverly sustained campaign of well constructed lies, half-truths and threats.

Iran has been the target of such a war for years, with Israel running the show while using allies in the U.S. Congress and the media to make Iran feel it is in the crosshairs of the military.
Israel has proved over time it is a master of deception, using guile and downright dishonesty in its major political dealings and negotiations in the Middle East.

In the past, Israel has fed Washington bogus information about Saddam Hussein’s supposed arsenal of weapons of mass destruction, just as it once fed Washington false intelligence about Iran during the Iran-Iraq War. Even before the fall of Saddam, Israel plotted to turn America’s military might against Iran and secretly lobbied its friends on Capitol Hill to make the case that the future nuclear threat to the U.S. and Europe would come from Tehran. It even circulated to the media stolen Pentagon papers it hoped would persuade the American public Iran should be targeted militarily.

Psychological warfare, built around disinformation, is also targeted at every Western citizen, especially Americans. Israel believes if enough lies are not challenged, as is often the case with the mainstream media and politicians in Congress, we shall all wake up one morning and an attack on Iran will have happened.

GET READY FOR A BIG OIL FREEZE

In the present economic climate, any decision by Israel’s friends in Congress to prevent Iran from selling oil could have devastating consequences for America.

In the worst-case scenario, the price of crude oil could double, and so too the cost of gasoline at the pump. The result would be catastrophic for middle-class families and for businesses across the nation. That hasn’t bothered senators, who have threatened to punish companies, banks or finance houses doing business with the Iranian Central Bank that handles the daily sale of millions of gallons of that nation’s crude oil, as well as its gas supplies.

A majority of senators said they were reacting to an attack on the British embassy in Tehran, but it has been clear for some time they will follow Israel’s agenda of squeezing Iran at any given opportunity.

The attack on Britain’s embassy in Tehran came after a curious decision by the British government to impose unilateral sanctions on Iran. It was a move that puzzled some EU governments. Experts in Brussels speculated that Britain had been prompted to make the move by the U.S. There is a feeling in some circles in Europe that, with an election a year away, Obama will do anything it takes to secure the Jewish vote and Israel’s backing.

The Iranians reacted to the Senate’s threat by warning that a barrel of crude oil could reach $250, hurting the global economy. The response from Russia and China was that the Senate was being foolhardy.

IRAN’S MILITARY NO PUSHOVER

As the Israeli drumbeat for an attack on Iran has grown louder this year, little attention has been paid to the fact the Iranian military is no pushover. Iran’s potential for striking back would be formidable, especially at targets in Europe and Israel. It could even shut off oil from the Persian Gulf, sending money markets into freefall. None of this has worried the Israelis, who live in a political cocoon, believing chaos is fine if it weakens any Islamic country posing a threat to their hegemonic military domination of the region.
——
Richard Walker is the pen name of a former N.Y. news producer.
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#16
Good honest post Heinrich.

The Shiite portents and predictions that Vlad posted are also listed word for word on this wikipedia for the Mahdi, including it saying they come from a book titled Nawaib Dahoor Alaim Zuhoor by Hassan Mir Jahaani dating back to 941 AD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi

This thread is rather fascinating.  Some of the Shiite portents and predictions are similar but not identical to some Catholic prophecies.  Like the Three Days of Darkness where three quarters of the population of the world will die compared to the Shiite predictions where two thirds of the population of the world will die.  Doesn't the masonic Georgia Guidstone say that they want to eliminate nine tenths of the population of the world?  I have often read that there is an element that has been trying to pit the Christian world against the Islamic world for quite some time.  It often connects that trouble making element to masons and zionists.  The Shiite predictions of the Mahdi is also some what similar to the Catholic prophecies of the Last Pope and the Great Monarch.  Muslims venerate Mary above all women.  The Muslims word for the antichrist is the dajjal and they believe that Jesus Christ will return to do away with the dajjal, same as what we believe on that account.

I can't help but think that if the Pope along with all the bishops properly consecrate Russia to Mary's Immaculate Heart that after the Russians convert to the Catholic Faith that Muslims will also convert in mass, even before many Protestants.  Father Gruner has often written that a proper consecration of Russia is not just a Catholic concern but a concern for all people and religions of the world.  Father Gruner has also written that we should be getting other people, not just Catholics to petition the Pope for a proper consecration.  Let's face it, a proper consecration of Russia is for the salvation of souls, not just Catholic souls.

Does anyone know a Shiite Muslim?  It would be interesting to invite a Shiite Muslim here to this thread to compare Shiite predictions to Catholic prophecies.  You know, straight from the horse's mouth so to speak for a change, rather than third party interpretations.

This is a really good time to have this conversation, you know, within the Christmas season.  I'm thinking of the lyrics to the Christmas carol 'Joy to the World'.
           
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#17
(12-27-2011, 02:21 PM)Heinrich Wrote:
(12-27-2011, 01:58 PM)Someone1776 Wrote:
(12-27-2011, 12:00 PM)Heinrich Wrote: This is a fascinating topic and I thank the arguers. Now, based on the facts as laid out(taking them into consideration), what is the thinking of Mahmoud Amadinejhad? Does he believe he and his people fit into these prophecies? That is, do they play a role in bringing them about? Again, please nevermind the 'expert' who was on O'Reilly or a non peer reviewed/unscholarly work( ergo propaganda hit piece) produced at the American Enterprise Institute.

What he thinks doesn't matter. He's no where close to be being the most important man in Iran. My view of the Iranian regime is that they are rational and not suicidal. They will happily support terrorists and mess around in the region, but not at the cost of their own country. In that regard they are similar to the Soviets, a threat but not a country willing to destroy itself in war over its beliefs.

Interesting to hear you say this. This most definitely flies in the face of the average neocon's conventional wisdom. Not implicating mind you, but one does not hear this too much in serious discourse. And I am not sure they are the ones supporting terrorists as state policy. If anyone has a state implemented policy of terrorism, it's the U, uh, here, I'll let article speak for itself:

Iran certainly supports terrorism and was heavily involved in the Iraq War.  But, Iran will only be as disruptive as is tolerated.  So, after 9/11 the Iranian leadership knew better than to say "death to the great Satan" and instead organized candle light vigils for the dead.  Iran isn't a country like Taliban Afghanistan that rather be invaded by the United States than hand over a terrorist.  Something to keep in mind with Iran is that they have an ancient and great civilization that has been remarkably stable over the past 3,000 years.  Heck, even scripture has a pretty favorable attitude toward Persia as it ended the Babylonian Captivity.  Anyway, I think that while the religious theocracy that runs Iran is rather whacked, Iran's culture and civilization ends up playing a big restraining role. And, the Iranians can be very practical.  Thus, even though Iran condemns the state of Israel it has happily cooperated with the Israelis in working against shared enemies (i.e. Iraq).  

That said I do think it is important to take a hard line against the Iranians.  They support a view of the world that is incompatible with our own.  Tough talk and sometimes actions is needed against the Iranians otherwise they will do whatever they like (i.e. the Hostage Crisis. Jimmy Carter didn't seem like a threat so they kept the hostages. Reagan looked like he would do something so they released them the day he became president, but only after they got Carter to pay them off in 50 tonnes of gold...pretty clever!).  But, I think all-out war between the U.S. and Iran is close to impossible because the Iranians are very shrewd at international diplomacy.  And, I think most people with knowledge of foreign affairs are aware of this.  
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#18
(12-27-2011, 02:56 PM)mikemac Wrote: Good honest post Heinrich.

The Shiite portents and predictions that Vlad posted are also listed word for word on this wikipedia for the Mahdi, including it saying they come from a book titled Nawaib Dahoor Alaim Zuhoor by Hassan Mir Jahaani dating back to 941 AD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi

A Google search for Nawaib Dahoor Alaim Zuhoor results in 23 returns.  All sources point back to the Wikipedia article.  It's just a hoax by someone having fun at Wikipedia. 
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#19
(12-27-2011, 03:01 PM)Someone1776 Wrote:
(12-27-2011, 02:21 PM)Heinrich Wrote:
(12-27-2011, 01:58 PM)Someone1776 Wrote:
(12-27-2011, 12:00 PM)Heinrich Wrote: This is a fascinating topic and I thank the arguers. Now, based on the facts as laid out(taking them into consideration), what is the thinking of Mahmoud Amadinejhad? Does he believe he and his people fit into these prophecies? That is, do they play a role in bringing them about? Again, please nevermind the 'expert' who was on O'Reilly or a non peer reviewed/unscholarly work( ergo propaganda hit piece) produced at the American Enterprise Institute.

What he thinks doesn't matter. He's no where close to be being the most important man in Iran. My view of the Iranian regime is that they are rational and not suicidal. They will happily support terrorists and mess around in the region, but not at the cost of their own country. In that regard they are similar to the Soviets, a threat but not a country willing to destroy itself in war over its beliefs.

Interesting to hear you say this. This most definitely flies in the face of the average neocon's conventional wisdom. Not implicating mind you, but one does not hear this too much in serious discourse. And I am not sure they are the ones supporting terrorists as state policy. If anyone has a state implemented policy of terrorism, it's the U, uh, here, I'll let article speak for itself:

Iran certainly supports terrorism and was heavily involved in the Iraq War.  But, Iran will only be as disruptive as is tolerated.  So, after 9/11 the Iranian leadership knew better than to say "death to the great Satan" and instead organized candle light vigils for the dead.  Iran isn't a country like Taliban Afghanistan that rather be invaded by the United States than hand over a terrorist.  Something to keep in mind with Iran is that they have an ancient and great civilization that has been remarkably stable over the past 3,000 years.  Heck, even scripture has a pretty favorable attitude toward Persia as it ended the Babylonian Captivity.  Anyway, I think that while the religious theocracy that runs Iran is rather whacked, Iran's culture and civilization ends up playing a big restraining role. And, the Iranians can be very practical.  Thus, even though Iran condemns the state of Israel it has happily cooperated with the Israelis in working against shared enemies (i.e. Iraq).  

That said I do think it is important to take a hard line against the Iranians.  They support a view of the world that is incompatible with our own.  Tough talk and sometimes actions is needed against the Iranians otherwise they will do whatever they like (i.e. the Hostage Crisis. Jimmy Carter didn't seem like a threat so they kept the hostages. Reagan looked like he would do something so they released them the day he became president, but only after they got Carter to pay them off in 50 tonnes of gold...pretty clever!).  But, I think all-out war between the U.S. and Iran is close to impossible because the Iranians are very shrewd at international diplomacy.  And, I think most people with knowledge of foreign affairs are aware of this.  

The tone of this post appears that you think Iran is a de facto enemy suapte inceptum. Not to say Persians are saints throughout history, by no means. But many American imperialists disregard what we did to that country and vociferously spew hatred toward it for yes, the blowback of the hostage crisis.
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#20
(12-27-2011, 03:07 PM)Someone1776 Wrote:
(12-27-2011, 02:56 PM)mikemac Wrote: Good honest post Heinrich.

The Shiite portents and predictions that Vlad posted are also listed word for word on this wikipedia for the Mahdi, including it saying they come from a book titled Nawaib Dahoor Alaim Zuhoor by Hassan Mir Jahaani dating back to 941 AD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi

A Google search for Nawaib Dahoor Alaim Zuhoor results in 23 returns.  All sources point back to the Wikipedia article.  It's just a hoax by someone having fun at Wikipedia. 

Yeah wouldn't it be terrible if the Christian world tried to make peace with the Muslim world.  :eyeroll:

Funny, I got 142 results for a search for 'Nawaib Dahoor Alaim Zuhoor'.
http://www.google.ca/search?q=The+time+of+the+reappearance+of+the+12th+Imam+will+be+when+people+will+be+able+to+travel+great+distances+by+flight.&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#pq=the+time+of+the+reappearance+of+the+12th+imam+will+be+when+people+will+be+able+to+travel+great+distances+by+flight.&hl=en&cp=26&gs_id=2n&xhr=t&q=Nawaib+Dahoor+Alaim+Zuhoor&pf=p&client=firefox-a&hs=tJc&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&sclient=psy-ab&pbx=1&oq=Nawaib+Dahoor+Alaim+Zuhoor&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=61f1b39abd53aa26&biw=931&bih=567

The Iranians are not Arabs.  The original roots of the Iranian people are the same as the German people.   
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