Conversation with Fr. James Gordon, FSSP, about Vatican II
#31
(12-29-2011, 11:26 AM)Tim Wrote: Baptism of desire or of blood are not the tap root of the problems we have today. Folks today believe every one goes to heaven because God is all merciful and ignores justice. This incessant harping on this baptism is a straw man. Go out and evangelize, not this going over the same territory over and over.

This "all good dogs go to heaven" heresy has it's roots in Calvinism double predestination and that those predestined are blessed by God with money and prosperity, conversely those without predestination go to Hell. This has morphed with the health and wealth gospell which says God wants everyone to be rich if you just pray like the televangelists tell folks to do. From there it is a small step to God wants all of us to go to Heaven and his Mercy makes it happen. In other words God's Justice is ignored.

Moreover, Baptism of Desire was taught before Vatican II, along with Baptism of Blood . These are not suspect, though not well defined. They like many others in the Church, operation is known only by God . Leave it alone. We have large issues to deal with like re-evangelizing the 25 million Catholics that left directly after the changes and are starving for the TLM.

Forgive me but it is stupid to go over this again, again and again. Unless you are trying to convert good Catholics to sedevacantism

tim

On the contrary, The majority of the Church Fathers did not believe in Baptism of desire. I happen to think that this subject is the gateway for one of the major problems the Church faces today. If it were not for Baptism of desire, there could not be anyone claiming souls are saved outside of the Catholic Church. Unlike the one or two Church Fathers who held some belief in Baptism of desire for catechumens, these heretics claim that it can be applied to Jews, Muslims, Protestants, etc. therefor there is no need for Conversion to the one True Faith.
    Furthermore, I am not trying to "convert good Catholics to sedevacantism"
Since the teachings of the Church Fathers are not unanimous on "baptism of desire" then, as Catholics, we must look to the Magisterium for clarification.

I don't read any exceptions in the quotes below...

Pope Gregory XVI, Summo Iugiter Studio, May 27, 1832, on no salvation outside the Church: “You know how zealously Our predecessors taught that article of faith which these dare to deny, namely the necessity of the Catholic faith and of unity for salvation… Omitting other appropriate passages which are almost numberless in the writings of the Fathers, We shall praise St. Gregory the Great who expressly testifies that THIS IS INDEED THE TEACHING OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.  He says: ‘The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved.’  Official acts of the Church proclaim the same dogma.  Thus, in the decree on faith which Innocent III published with the synod of Lateran IV, these things are written: ‘There is one universal Church of all the faithful outside of which no one is saved.’  Finally the same dogma is also expressly mentioned in the profession of faith proposed by the Apostolic See, not only that which all Latin churches use, but also that which… other Eastern Catholics use.  We did not mention these selected testimonies because We thought you were ignorant of that article of faith and in need of Our instruction.  Far be it from Us to have such an absurd and insulting suspicion about you.  But We are so concerned about this serious and well known dogma, which has been attacked with such remarkable audacity, that We could not restrain Our pen from reinforcing this truth with many testimonies.”
 
Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439:  “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church.  And since death entered the universe through the first man, ‘unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5].  The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.”

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#32
It pains me that Fr. Gordon was treated this way. If people in the tank knew him as I know him, you would be outraged as well. Fr. Gordon, an ex-Marine officer, is an exemplary priest who is a true spiritual militant in the service of Our Lord. This man is uncompromising in his faith, who takes the self-sacrificing nature of the priesthood seriously. For him to be ambushed this way and recorded without his permission is despicable.
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#33
Are you a priest ? If you are not you are not where does your authority come from ?

Baltimore Catechism No. 323, published 1949 Fr. Connell

How doe an unbaptized person receive the baptism of desire ?

An unbaptized person receives the baptism of desire when he loves God above all things and desires to do all that is necessary for his salvation.

(a) Baptism of desire takes away all sin, original and actual, and the eternal punishment due to sin.It does not imprint a character on the soul, nor does it necessarily take away all of the temporal punishment due to actual sins.

(b) In baptism of desire there need not always be an ecplicit desire to receive baptism of water.

Scripture;
[25] And behold a certain lawyer stood up, tempting him, and saying, Master, what must I do to possess eternal life?
[26] But he said to him: What is written in the law? how readest thou?
[27] He answering, said: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind: and thy neighbour as thyself.
[28] And he said to him: Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Luke 10: 25-28
--------------------

[21] He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them; he it is that loveth me. And he that loveth me, shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14: 21
----------------

[23] Jesus answered, and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him.

John 14: 23

This is what I and everyone before the changes was taught. I will stick to what has been handed down.

tim

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#34
(12-29-2011, 12:38 PM)Tim Wrote: Are you a priest ? If you are not you are not where does your authority come from ?

Baltimore Catechism No. 323, published 1949 Fr. Connell

How doe an unbaptized person receive the baptism of desire ?

An unbaptized person receives the baptism of desire when he loves God above all things and desires to do all that is necessary for his salvation.

(a) Baptism of desire takes away all sin, original and actual, and the eternal punishment due to sin.It does not imprint a character on the soul, nor does it necessarily take away all of the temporal punishment due to actual sins.

(b) In baptism of desire there need not always be an ecplicit desire to receive baptism of water.

Scripture;
[25] And behold a certain lawyer stood up, tempting him, and saying, Master, what must I do to possess eternal life?
[26] But he said to him: What is written in the law? how readest thou?
[27] He answering, said: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind: and thy neighbour as thyself.
[28] And he said to him: Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Luke 10: 25-28
--------------------

[21] He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them; he it is that loveth me. And he that loveth me, shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14: 21
----------------

[23] Jesus answered, and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him.

John 14: 23

This is what I and everyone before the changes was taught. I will stick to what has been handed down.

tim

What authority do I need in order to read an encyclical that defines Catholic Dogma and hold fast to it?
If you truly believe that baptism of desire was held by the majority or even many of the early Church Fathers please provide proof.
By the way the "changes" had started long before the council. How do you think a council could be "hijacked" by liberals if their way of thinking was not already infecting the Church long before?
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#35
See you later, I have no time for this silliness.

tim
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#36
(12-29-2011, 01:26 PM)Tim Wrote: See you later, I have no time for this silliness.

tim

You are incorrect in saying that Baptism of desire is not well defined. It was
NEVER defined. Also, you refuse to supply evidence that the idea of Baptism of desire was always taught by the Church, because there is no evidence to supply.
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#37
(12-29-2011, 12:26 PM)rbjmartin Wrote: It pains me that Fr. Gordon was treated this way. If people in the tank knew him as I know him, you would be outraged as well. Fr. Gordon, an ex-Marine officer, is an exemplary priest who is a true spiritual militant in the service of Our Lord. This man is uncompromising in his faith, who takes the self-sacrificing nature of the priesthood seriously. For him to be ambushed this way and recorded without his permission is despicable.

Yes!  My thoughts exactly. 
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#38
(12-29-2011, 01:47 PM)Spencer Wrote:
(12-29-2011, 01:26 PM)Tim Wrote: See you later, I have no time for this silliness.

tim

You are incorrect in saying that Baptism of desire is not well defined. It was
NEVER defined. Also, you refuse to supply evidence that the idea of Baptism of desire was always taught by the Church, because there is no evidence to supply.

I don't have to do that, I gave you the catechism.

later,

tim
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#39
(12-29-2011, 02:30 PM)Tim Wrote:
(12-29-2011, 01:47 PM)Spencer Wrote:
(12-29-2011, 01:26 PM)Tim Wrote: See you later, I have no time for this silliness.

tim

You are incorrect in saying that Baptism of desire is not well defined. It was
NEVER defined. Also, you refuse to supply evidence that the idea of Baptism of desire was always taught by the Church, because there is no evidence to supply.

I don't have to do that, I gave you the catechism.

later,

tim

Bravo.
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#40
(12-29-2011, 02:30 PM)Tim Wrote:
(12-29-2011, 01:47 PM)Spencer Wrote:
(12-29-2011, 01:26 PM)Tim Wrote: See you later, I have no time for this silliness.

tim

You are incorrect in saying that Baptism of desire is not well defined. It was
NEVER defined. Also, you refuse to supply evidence that the idea of Baptism of desire was always taught by the Church, because there is no evidence to supply.

I don't have to do that, I gave you the catechism.

later,

tim


The Baltimore Catechism is not infallible and had imbibed modernist heresy.  That is why it not only teaches baptism of desire and blood, but that people can be saved in false religions.

I have provided you with one of the many statements on Outside the Catholic Church There is No Salvation from the highest teaching authority of the Catholic Church. They are ex cathedra Papal decrees. Therefore, they constitute the teaching given to the Catholic Church by Jesus Christ and the Apostles. Such teachings are unchangeable and are classified as part of the solemn magisterium (the extraordinary teaching authority of the Catholic Church).
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