Dealing with the Deceptive Dimond Demimonde
Quote: Fr, Stipulating that you are correct in your premise and conclusion, are we free in your opinion to believe that it has probably never happened?  Whether one holds the "Feeney " position or BOD or BOB, no more or less souls are saved either formulation.  Feeney's position simply is more consistent with God's economy. and Pope Eugene's statement in Cantate Domino that is either false or severely limits Baptism of Blood.

We can safely say it (BOD/BOB) "probably never happened."  That would be the free expression of an opinion, which carries with it some doubt as to its probability.  However clear reasoning would point otherwise.  Elsewhere some cases of non-water baptism have been mentioned (e.g., Valentinian by St. Ambrose).  And then there are the catechumens who were fed to the lions for the entertainment of the pagans.  It can be fairly presumed that these catechumens (so-called because they were still going through the process of becoming members of the Church) were saved by shedding their blood for Christ.  The Roman Martyrology contains many of the names of these saints who have been canonized long before the systematic Church proceedings for canonization was formulated.  The Church has said these saints died for Jesus, and who are we to question her?  Causa finita est.  Do we question St. Ambrose who declared Valentinian was saved?  He must have known something, which we don't.

As for consistency of God's economy of salvation, it would seem that what has been taught by the Scriptures and Tradition was just enough to bring man to salvation. But it seems, not really (despite the Bible, there are gazillions who have made up their minds how to go about their salvation).  Why then do we have these extraordinary revelations by Heaven in sending the Holy Mother of God with spiritual messages and Jesus Himself going "out of bounds" by making Himself personally available to anyone to have recourse to His Sacred Heart, devotions to His Precious Blood, etc.,, along with the admonitions "Woe to you" if ignored.  Okay, granted that the foregoing are private revelations and not required to be accepted for belief.  Yet it would be presumptuous and foolish to disregard the mind of the Church who has vouchsafed that these revelations are worthy of belief. 

As for Cantate Domino, Pope Eugene states that "... none of those existing outside the Catholic Church ... can have a share in life eternal ... unless before death they are joined with Her."  If God pours out His graces freely to all (not only Catholics) whom He may want to save, who are we to say that those outside the Church receiving these graces are touched and do make use of them and convert and jump into the Ark of the Church (Jews, Protestants, schismatics, heretics, pagans)?  Pope Eugene singles out all those who are obdurate, impenitent, resisting the graces, though these may even shed their blood for Christ (as those Protestant "martyrs" in Asia, Africa and elsewhere) but their action is for naught.

What we may forget is that God is not bound by His own Laws nor by the Sacraments. 

A footnote to the impasse:  BOD/BOB was never an issue of contention until Fr. Feeney showed up.  All those years since St. Cyprian originally declared the formula, Salus extra ecclesiam non est, there was never THE great debate about Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood.  Was ever there?  I mean as contentious as these debates rage on these days.  Were there?  I'd liked to be pointed to them.  Who were the Dimonds of those ages?

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Re: Dealing with the Deceptive Dimond Demimonde - by Vincentius - 12-31-2011, 08:57 AM

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