Baptism of Desire and Theological Principles by Fr. Cekada
#11
The Holy Innocents are in Paradise because of Baptism of Blood.
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#12
(12-29-2011, 02:56 PM)Jenn Wrote:
(12-29-2011, 02:47 PM)Stubborn Wrote: My assumption that my interpretation of Trent is correct is because it says what it says. Why others read it and see what is not there is beyond me - regardless, in the interest of seeking for the truth,  I am willing and ready to accept that I am wrong - but there ain't nobody going to convince me that Trent says there is such a thing as BOD - much less that Trent defines it.
No where in any authoritative Church teachings is salvation without baptism taught. And if perchance I am wrong - and I certainly am open to that distinct possibility - no one has yet been able to produce any evidence that such a teaching exists. IF it exists at all, it would contradict what has already been declared infallibly, which is why I say that it does not exist. Which is why I asked to which authority are we bound when there is a contradiction. 

Excellent post. No one has ever been able to show me that BOD has been formally defined. That's because it hasn't been. Water baptism has, on the other hand, been formally defined and it is an infallible teaching of the Church. Which am I required to believe? The infallible teaching of the Church.  

Thank you Jenn!

This is the heart of what I am attempting to find out......and I agree completely with your conclusion.

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#13
(12-29-2011, 03:02 PM)Old Salt Wrote: The Holy Innocents are in Paradise because of Baptism of Blood.

Well, because Our Lord did not institute the Sacrament till basically just before His Ascension, St. Dismas is an Old Testament saint who died before the Sacrament was instituted, so we can't use his reward as being from BOD - same goes for the Holy Innocents.

Our Lord was not 2 years old Himself when the Holy Innocents were slaughtered in place of Him.
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#14
(12-29-2011, 03:05 PM)Stubborn Wrote:
(12-29-2011, 03:02 PM)Old Salt Wrote: The Holy Innocents are in Paradise because of Baptism of Blood.

Well, because Our Lord did not institute the Sacrament till basically just before His Ascension, St. Dismas is an Old Testament saint who died before the Sacrament was instituted, so we can't use his reward as being from BOD - same goes for the Holy Innocents.

Our Lord was not 2 years old Himself when the Holy Innocents were slaughtered in place of Him.
So your point is...?
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#15
The Church definitively teaches of the reality of Baptism of Desire:

Thus the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized" (CCC 1281; the salvation of unbaptized infants is also possible under this system; cf. CCC 1260–1, 1283

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#16
(12-29-2011, 03:08 PM)Old Salt Wrote:
(12-29-2011, 03:05 PM)Stubborn Wrote:
(12-29-2011, 03:02 PM)Old Salt Wrote: The Holy Innocents are in Paradise because of Baptism of Blood.

Well, because Our Lord did not institute the Sacrament till basically just before His Ascension, St. Dismas is an Old Testament saint who died before the Sacrament was instituted, so we can't use his reward as being from BOD - same goes for the Holy Innocents.

Our Lord was not 2 years old Himself when the Holy Innocents were slaughtered in place of Him.
So your point is...?

My point is that the Sacrament was not instituted at the time of the Holy Innocents. It was not a requirement at that time.
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#17
(12-29-2011, 03:12 PM)Old Salt Wrote: The Church definitively teaches of the reality of Baptism of Desire:

Thus the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized" (CCC 1281; the salvation of unbaptized infants is also possible under this system; cf. CCC 1260–1, 1283

I understand that this is taught, I also understand it contradicts Trent as I showed in my post on the bottom of the first page of this thread.

If to you, it does not contradict, then by all means explain how the above teaching from the CCC agrees with Trent.
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#18
(12-29-2011, 03:25 PM)Stubborn Wrote:
(12-29-2011, 03:12 PM)Old Salt Wrote: The Church definitively teaches of the reality of Baptism of Desire:

Thus the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized" (CCC 1281; the salvation of unbaptized infants is also possible under this system; cf. CCC 1260–1, 1283

I understand that this is taught, I also understand it contradicts Trent as I showed in my post on the bottom of the first page of this thread.

If to you, it does not contradict, then by all means explain how the above teaching from the CCC agrees with Trent.
I apologise for not having the time to read the whole piece, could you please cite the teaching of Trent that says there is no Baptism of Desire?
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#19
What is the consequence for embracing BoD? Would a high level clergyman like Lefebvre been in mortal sin for embracing it?
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#20
(12-29-2011, 03:28 PM)Old Salt Wrote:
(12-29-2011, 03:25 PM)Stubborn Wrote:
(12-29-2011, 03:12 PM)Old Salt Wrote: The Church definitively teaches of the reality of Baptism of Desire:

Thus the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized" (CCC 1281; the salvation of unbaptized infants is also possible under this system; cf. CCC 1260–1, 1283

I understand that this is taught, I also understand it contradicts Trent as I showed in my post on the bottom of the first page of this thread.

If to you, it does not contradict, then by all means explain how the above teaching from the CCC agrees with Trent.
I apologise for not having the time to read the whole piece, could you please cite the teaching of Trent that says there is no Baptism of Desire?

If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.
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