Baptism of Desire and Theological Principles by Fr. Cekada
(12-30-2011, 10:15 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: No one is denying the necessity, as I have stated many times. What is stated is the necessity is not absolute but relative.

If Trent says that actual water is necessary, even giving a warning to those who would attempt to turn it into a metaphor, and you are saying that it isn't necessary in some cases, then you are denying it.

Quote: Here, let's try this again:

“On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.” (Catechism of the Council of Trent, p. 179 under Baptism)

Sed quamvis haec ita sint non consuevit tamen ecclesia baptismi sacramenlum huic hominum generi statim tribuere sed ad certum tempus differendum esse constituit. Neque enim ea dilatio periculum quod quidem pueris imminere supra dictum est, coniunctum habet, quum illis qui rationis usu praediti sunt baptismi suscipiendi propositum atque consilium, et male actae vitae poenitentia satis futura sit ad gratiam ct iustitiam si repentinus aliquis casus impediat, quo minus salutari aqua ablui possint (Pars 2, Caput 2, Quaestio 25, p. 145).

God help you if that doesn't suffice!

That is, baptism of desire. In fact, the Church teaches that delaying adult baptism a little is advantageous. But if such a possibility as baptism of desire was impossible, then such a delay would be positively sinful, as in the case of infant baptism, which is not to be delayed.

]I am sorry, but you are obstinate, and holding to an utterly unfounded reservation.

Utterly unfounded? You must be joking. A few more quotes for you:

Quote:St. Gregory Nazianzen:

If you were able to judge a man who intends to commit murder solely by his intention and without any act of murder, then you could likewise reckon as baptized one who desired baptism. But, since you cannot do the former, how can you do the latter? If you prefer, we will put it this way: If, in your opinion, desire has equal power with actual baptism, then make the same judgment in regard to glory. You would then be satisfied to desire glory, as though that longing itself were glory. Do you suffer any damage by not attaining the actual glory, as long as you have a desire for it? I cannot see it!”  (Oration on Divine Light, XL, #23)

Quote:St. Ambrose:

One is the Baptism which the Church administers: the Baptism of water and the Holy Ghost, with which catechumens need to be baptized… Nor does the mystery of regeneration exist at all without water, for ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom.’ Now, even the catechumen believes in the cross of the Lord Jesus, with which he also signs himself; but, unless he be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, he cannot receive remission of his sins nor the gift of spiritual grace." (De Mysteriis, From the Divine Office)

Quote:Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439:

“Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church. And since death entered the universe through the first man, ‘unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]. The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.

Quote:St. Fulgentius:

Let no doubt shake our mind from this view; let no one say that a man is saved unless he comes to this bodily immersion; at any rate let us not say that he can be saved without the sacrament of baptism purely on the confession of faith. For he who believes and is baptized, will be saved. And as for that young man whom we know to have believed and confessed his faith: we maintain that it was through the sacrament of baptism that he was saved. If anyone is not baptized, not only in ignorance, but even knowingly, he can in no way be saved. For his path to salvation was through the confession, and salvation itself was in baptism.
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Quote:An relative necessity is a necessity that is only operative under the appropriate conditions. At this point, there is no further debate. This is just unCatholic to utterly deny to see this point, which is not complex. I can understand having question about a mystery like the Trinity, but this is elementary logic. Please review this thread over and pray about it. Anyone who denies the possibility of baptism of desire is on extremely sandy ground, religiously and logically. This and EENS people have trouble with because of their extreme legalism. Look at it for what is is, an extreme view which the Church before and after VII rejected.

I think I'll close with:

[quote]Pope Pius IX, First Vatican Council, Sess. 3, Chap. 2 on Revelation, 1870, ex cathedra:

“Hence, also, that understanding of its sacred dogmas must be perpetually retained, which Holy Mother Church has once declared; and there must never be a recession from that meaning under the specious name of a deeper understanding.” (Denz. 1800)
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Re: Baptism of Desire and Theological Principles by Fr. Cekada - by Jenn - 12-31-2011, 12:45 AM



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