Baptism of Desire and Theological Principles by Fr. Cekada
(12-31-2011, 03:40 PM)jordanawef Wrote: Stubborn, we went over this a few months ago, about how the Sacrament as a precept remains always, and how what is called "Baptism of Desire," is not a Sacrament, and does not remit the necessary precept to receive the Sacrament, but rather, the desire for baptism can effect an extra-Sacramental justification.  I also told you before we talked about this a few months ago, even longer ago, that if this was important to you, to go to the nearest pontifical university, buy a plane ticket or drive, and check out 3 things: the Catechisms since Trent, the Theology Manuals used to train our Priests, and most importantly, you should check out the commentaries on the Council of Trent, of which there are many, and look at the section of Justification, and you will find the same teaching regarding this extra-sacramental justification, and the formulations of what later would be called "Baptism of Desire," specifically, as formulated by St. Alphonsus Liguori.  You said that you would have rather taken a poll amongst fish eaters, as if crowd sourcing Theology is more authoritative, as if the Church learning is more important than the Church Teaching.  Moreover, you expressed some sort of repugnance with my suggestion that you do this, in that it was not possible or worth it to you to make such an undertaking.  Now, my problem with that is, that this is the Faith, and since you are being warned that you stand in direct contradiction to the above, and keep to your stubborn private interpretations, you being untrained in Scholastic thought, you persist in spouting what the Doctor of the Church, St. Alphonsus Liguori called "De Fide."  Now I say, that making this trip to a library would be good for your soul, and if you care about your Faith you will do it.  If it is still not worth your time, you can take it from me, someone who has done the above.  This is the constant teaching of the Church.  Your feeneyism is a modern invention in reaction to Universal Salvation.  You have erred in the opposite direction of the excess, and are now in defect, and this defect is a novelty of the 20th Century.  This defect is in direct contradiction to Tradition of the Church.  This defect is an erroneous interoperation due to not understanding scholastic principles and terms, and is a symptom of the problem of Vatican II, where the Church Learning were thrown into a position where they needed to arise to a higher level, yet, with that comes great danger, because Denziger and an internet connection only get you so far, and throw in that a lack of humility when dealing with the Holy Faith, and you have a disaster.

What more can we say to you?  If this was my forum, we would not deviate from the Doctors of the Church, the Councils of the Church, the sanctioned and approved commentaries on the Councils, the Manuals, the Catechisms, the Commentaries on the Summa, St. Thomas himself in the Summa, Saint Alphonsus Ligoru, the Holy Office, Rome, the Roman Congregations, all who teach what has come to be known as Baptism of Desire.

We as Catholics must stand with the above, and not our interpretations of their interpretations either, but rather, with their precise interpretations.  I for one, stand with the above list.  The list of whom you stand with is the excommunicated Fr. Feeney, and the Brothers Diamond, young internet theologians, and perhaps a random de Costa bishop or two - not good company, and in any case, good company or no, in direct contradiction to the constant, deliberate, well thought-out, precise, hundreds-of-years-considered position and teaching of the Catholic Church.

For me, all I really need to see a Catechism, and tell me that St. Alphonsus taught it in the Theologia Moralis, and you have me sold.  What more can be done for people like you, I do not know.  The Faith is there for your discovery, yet you think you have it and you are one of its last defenders, and this puts you in a voraciously defensive position.  You thinking that you know, prevents you from knowing.  If you would just get up out of your computer chair and head to that library, you will find the Faith waiting for you.

Well, depending on which catechism you use, you'll get a different definition. Trent's catechism never speaks about BOD's  accidental death or salvation from it. OTOH, the latest CCC rewards salvation via BOD. So I suppose if you're gonna believe in salvation via BOD, it really does not matter that Trent's catechism teaches no such thing - right?

And for whatever it's worth, I have a complete set of Theology manuals from 1908 and have no need to fly, drive or visit a modernist pontifical university when any elementary school student can read the contradiction plainly - it must take a lot of education to read what is not written, then defend what is not written, that's all I can say about that.

Whether one believes in BOD or not is not the real reason that I started this thread. I started it because there is a real, obvious contradiction when it comes to this Sacrament.

A) BOD teaches water is not necessary.
B) Trent teaches that water is necessary.

For whoever has difficulties with comprehension, A contradicts B.
For whoever still says that no contradiction exists, well, they must have a reading and comprehension problem.

SOME members of the Ordinary Magisterium do teach salvation via BOD - we all already know that to be fact. I do not agree that one needs to be a theologian with a masters degree to see the obvious contradiction - which is why I asked in the OP - who are we to believe?

It boils down to BOD being a completely different baptism all together from the one defined at Trent. THAT is the truth of the matter. *That* I can agree to. *That* I understand. *That* is obvious to me - and I am not saying I agree BOD saves. All I am trying to do here is to get some BOD supporter to admit the obvious here - namely, that BOD is a completely different Baptism than the one defined at Trent. 

Once someone who believes in BOD will finally do that, then maybe we can move forward.   


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Re: Baptism of Desire and Theological Principles by Fr. Cekada - by Stubborn - 12-31-2011, 05:38 PM



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