Baptism of Desire and Theological Principles by Fr. Cekada
(01-02-2012, 07:25 PM)Doce Me Wrote: (If you haven't read the post before mine, do so!)
(12-31-2011, 03:32 PM)Stubborn Wrote: For the life of me I fail to understand what goes through the mind of any one who can say that "Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."  . . . .  and. . . . . Baptism of desire is sufficient for salvation, if it is impossible to receive the Baptism of water. are not an obvious contradiction.

It would follow that the many catechisms and theologians that teach baptism of desire are all guilty of stupidity, carelessness, or deception (or self-deception) in claiming something that is obviously contrary to truth - and then contradicting themselves explicitly!  Doesn't it occur to you, beneath your stubbornness, that you should be a little humble and look more closely to see if it is rather you who are missing something true, even if not so obvious? 

I think that one key thing you are missing is that in a command the words "necessary" or  "unless" do not always bind the law giver to allow no exceptions - and that most often a law is given without explicitly listing the exceptions.  This is true both for man's law and for God's.  God did not list all the exceptions to "Thou shalt not kill".  Exceptions weren't left out because God was unknowing or powerless, but for the good of those to whom the law was given.  In the same way I think that Christ's words "unless a man be born again..." allowed - not by my say-so, but by the consensus of the Church - an unspoken exception in the case of Baptism of Desire. 

You might make the argument  "Since UNLESS in Christ's words means no exceptions,  therefore God MUST provide water baptism, since nothing is impossible to Him".  But this argument does not follow, if UNLESS can allow unspoken exceptions.  The Church (just to start, in theologians and catechisms) DOES SOMETIMES SPEAK the exceptions. They cannot be denied without denying the teaching of the Church.

If what you say be true regarding the word "unless" that it contains unspoken exceptions, in the verse being considered there is also linked in with "water" the words "the spirit" conjoined with the word "and."
Therefore if "unless" is permitting unspoken exceptions concerning "water," it must also contain unspoken exceptions concerning "the spirit." No?

Regarding "Thou shalt not kill," the exceptions were already known even before the commandment was explicitly known, otherwise the death penalty for certain crimes and the "Just war" exceptions would have been sinful after the commandment was given. As this indeed was not the case it is obvious that these unspoken exceptions presented no contradiction in OT times and these exceptions can clearly be seen as explicit in the deposit of faith and not in contradiction to the teachings of the apostles.  This is why even those who perceive the contradictions contained in BoD teaching, see no such contradiction in the commandment "thou shalt not kill."
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Re: Baptism of Desire and Theological Principles by Fr. Cekada - by columb - 01-02-2012, 09:36 PM



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