Baptism of Desire and Theological Principles by Fr. Cekada
(01-04-2012, 07:02 AM)Stubborn Wrote:
(01-04-2012, 03:53 AM)Doce Me Wrote: Columb,  such a catechumen would be infused with Sanctifying Grace by God, who Himself baptizes the man, making him a supernatural man, on account of a desire that God knows (and indeed put) in the man's heart.  It is not just  "any old desire", and it must be accompanied by a roadblock to the Sacrament that God knows and permits.

<I'm answering your post a bit at a time, in an order that I find easier to address>
I mean you no disrespect, but this "permitted roadblock" comment completely perverts the doctrine of Divine Providence.

Then the Catechism of the Council of Trent is perverting the doctrine of Divine Providence when it says "should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters". It is speaking of impossibility BEFORE DEATH for adults, as it is does for babies.  If dying in grace and righteousness WITHOUT BAPTISM still sends the man to hell, than what is the point of  the Catechism talking about grace and righteousness at all?  If they don't matter as to salvation, then how is the risk for an adult less than the risk for a baby?

Taking your statement  concerning "perverting the doctrine of Divine Providence" to an extreme, God couldn't permit ANYTHING to EVER get in the way of obeying even the letter of any command.  Anyone who misses Mass  really is entirely to blame himself, because God doesn't EVER permit roadblocks or human impossibilities. Why should He?  He's God!   Saying God sometimes permits such things perverts the doctrine of Divine Providence, according to you.

No, God doesn't always work miracles, He allows the usual course of  His Divine Providence to go on in nature. That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust. Matt 5:45 Sometimes rain (or the lack thereof) can make things impossible for man - and God  permits this!

When God causes supernatural things, no rain or sun can make these things impossible, and they are absolutely necessary.  But natural, physical. things are only relatively necessary; God sometimes allows physical impossibilities for these.  This is what the Catechism and theologians and saints who support Baptism of Desire believe - do you seriously want to accuse all these of "perverting Divine providence"??

(01-04-2012, 07:02 AM)Stubborn Wrote: <fragment of your post>
God .. does not make a Law, ... then (1) accompany that Law with a roadblock so as to make adherence to the Law impossible to adhere to - but (2) ONLY for any person who sincerely desires it.

(1) It's not right to say the command to receive baptism is "accompanied with"  a roadblock, any more than it is to say the command to go to Mass is "accompanied with" a roadblock. The actual carrying out of these commands can have a roadblock for any particular instance and individual, but it not something "built into" the command. 

You are denying the possibility of relative necessity, where God has every right to allow a roadblock for man.
We say God CAN overcome a roadblock but He CAN also permit it, making the necessity relative, and choosing sometimes to do DIRECTLY what water does in the Sacrament.  You are restricting God!

(2) "... roadblock so as to make adherence to the Law impossible to adhere to - but ONLY for any person who sincerely desires it."

This makes no sense to me.  Any accident making receiving baptism impossible would apply just as well to those who don't desire it.  God knows if someone is heading to receive baptism without faith and without the desire He demands; such a one doesn't get Baptism of Desire.  God doesn't choose those who desire baptism and then make it impossible in particular for them. He permits impossibility just as He allows rain to fall on the just and unjust - as He so chooses!

It's not a bunch of nonsense to say "anyone could have a car accident on the way to be baptized".  It's God's normal ordering of providence. Unfortunate physical things can happen, and God doesn't always prevent them. But He acts with mercy in response to them.

(01-04-2012, 07:02 AM)Stubborn Wrote: God plays no games, He does not make a Law, command our adherence to the Law, send the Apostles out on foot all over the world, command them to teach this Law to the whole human race in every corner of the world, then accompany that Law with a roadblock so as to make adherence to the Law impossible to adhere to - but ONLY for any person who sincerely desires it. That's a pretty darn and downright scary thought.

Commanding a thing and then permitting a roadblock for someone trying to obey the command doesn't make the command a game.  Desiring baptism only is valuable because it is desiring THE SACRAMENT.  The SACRAMENT is commanded to all because it gives Sanctifying Grace, but also because it makes us SURE that we have RECEIVED it, that we have OBEYED God's command, AND because it makes us members of the Church, and able to receive the other sacraments.  Baptism of Desire is something we can't be sure of, it is God's prerogative of mercy to grant salvation to those whom He knows have done their UTMOST to receive the SACRAMENT . The command to receive the Sacrament remains a command until death, until it is carried out.  Baptism of desire is not  "another option".  It is God's prerogative not man's option. All that is commanded for man is to obey; but it is God's choice what to do if man fails.  It is His choice to provide an exception if He wills.
Don't deny God's prerogatives.

It is also God's prerogative to use the words "Unless a man..." without specifying explicit exceptions. This is something man can do, and it is something Christ the God-man can do - having infinite power and knowledge doesn't take away this choice from Christ.  The Church always says Baptism is necessary, you or we can point this out in many, many, places.  But the Church also allows exceptions, it allows necessity to be relative.  The exception does not need to be stated each time; it is not denying Baptism of Desire to not mention it.

Don't deny God's prerogatives.

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Re: Baptism of Desire and Theological Principles by Fr. Cekada - by Doce Me - 01-04-2012, 11:39 PM

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