Baptism of Desire: Avoiding the Red Herrings on a Nearby Thread
(01-29-2012, 04:39 AM)Gregory I Wrote: NO, my view of the Church is not skewed. Scholastics and Jesuits are not the church.

:awww: :LOL:
Reply
(01-29-2012, 05:46 AM)Parmandur Wrote:
(01-29-2012, 04:39 AM)Gregory I Wrote: NO, my view of the Church is not skewed. Scholastics and Jesuits are not the church.

:awww: :LOL:

I know that you disagree with him, but you should probably mock him less and see what you can do to his remedy skewed view of the Church. We must believe that he is sincere in his belief.
Reply
(01-29-2012, 06:55 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(01-29-2012, 05:46 AM)Parmandur Wrote:
(01-29-2012, 04:39 AM)Gregory I Wrote: NO, my view of the Church is not skewed. Scholastics and Jesuits are not the church.

:awww: :LOL:

I know that you disagree with him, but you should probably mock him less and see what you can do to his remedy skewed view of the Church. We must believe that he is sincere in his belief.

The thing is, I doubt that it is possible.  I have become convinced that Feeneyism is not an opinion held in good will, but a dangerous heresy held obstinately in defiance of reason.  Mockery is fitting for such as this.
Reply
And BOD-ism is the result of a faithless mind, One where God is too small to enable those of good will to keep his commands.

It cries out...
Reply
(01-29-2012, 02:56 PM)Gregory I Wrote: And BOD-ism is the result of a faithless mind, One where God is too small to enable those of good will to keep his commands.

It cries out...

St. Thomas Aquinas, the Angelic Doctor...faithless mind.  :LOL:
St. Bonaventure, the Seraphic Docotr...faithless mind.  :LOL:
St. Albert the Great, the Universal Doctor...faithless mind.  :LOL:
St. Alphonsus Liguori...faithless mind.  :LOL:
St. Ambrose of Milan...faithless mind.  :LOL:
St. Bernard...faithless mind.  :LOL:
St. Robert Bellarmine...faithless mind.  :LOL:
St. Pius V...faithless mind.  :LOL:
St. Pius X...faithless mind.  :LOL:

Also, all these saints were apparently too stupid to see a basic contradiction about a major dogma, unlike yourself.  I am in awe of your genius.  :LOL:
Reply
It is not my job to judge why they erred, only that they did.

Plus, EVERY ONE of those theologians contradicts themselves. THey will ALSO teach Baptism of Water is obligatory on all and absolutely necessary for salvation.

Some undoubtedly taught it because they felt it was handed down.

Oh, well.

They are NOT THE CHURCH.

That is my point. A handful of theologians cannot rule the Church.

I refrain from judging them, I only point out the inconsistency and say:

"Thanks, but no thanks. I will stick with the unanimous teaching of the Church Fathers and the UNANIMOUS Teaching of the Theologians who teach something as revealed by God: There is no Justification apart from sacramental water baptism, which all who are to be saved are obligated to undergo."

THAT is the teaching of the church.

SHOW ME where BOD is taught BY THE CHURCH, OR the UNANIMOUS Consent of her Theologians that it is REVEALED BY GOD. Sure, these all speculated, but they did not all teach it was REVEALED BY GOD.

Demonstrate THAT and I will change my mind.
Reply
(01-29-2012, 03:47 PM)Gregory I Wrote: It is not my job to judge why they erred, only that they did.

Plus, EVERY ONE of those theologians contradicts themselves. THey will ALSO teach Baptism of Water is obligatory on all and absolutely necessary for salvation.

Some undoubtedly taught it because they felt it was handed down.

Oh, well.

They are NOT THE CHURCH.

That is my point. A handful of theologians cannot rule the Church.

I refrain from judging them, I only point out the inconsistency and say:

"Thanks, but no thanks. I will stick with the unanimous teaching of the Church Fathers and the UNANIMOUS Teaching of the Theologians who teach something as revealed by God: There is no Justification apart from sacramental water baptism, which all who are to be saved are obligated to undergo."

THAT is the teaching of the church.

SHOW ME where BOD is taught BY THE CHURCH, OR the UNANIMOUS Consent of her Theologians that it is REVEALED BY GOD. Sure, these all speculated, but they did not all teach it was REVEALED BY GOD.

Demonstrate THAT and I will change my mind.

:chleader:  I'm with you on this!
Reply
(01-29-2012, 03:01 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(01-29-2012, 02:56 PM)Gregory I Wrote: And BOD-ism is the result of a faithless mind, One where God is too small to enable those of good will to keep his commands.

It cries out...

St. Thomas Aquinas, the Angelic Doctor...faithless mind.  :LOL:
St. Bonaventure, the Seraphic Docotr...faithless mind.  :LOL:
St. Albert the Great, the Universal Doctor...faithless mind.  :LOL:
St. Alphonsus Liguori...faithless mind.  :LOL:
St. Ambrose of Milan...faithless mind.  :LOL:
St. Bernard...faithless mind.  :LOL:
St. Robert Bellarmine...faithless mind.  :LOL:
St. Pius V...faithless mind.  :LOL:
St. Pius X...faithless mind.  :LOL:

Also, all these saints were apparently too stupid to see a basic contradiction about a major dogma, unlike yourself.  I am in awe of your genius.  :LOL:

It's "well enough" to say that all these taught "baptism of desire" and therefore seduce the minds of weak brethren with the specious contradiction which is "baptism of desire," but the question as to whether these did, in actuality, teach "baptism of desire" is largely ignored.

St. Thomas Aquinas did not teach baptism of desire, as you've proven by quoting him.  He did teach three baptisms, one which was the Sacrament, two which were contained in the Sacrament (baptism of repentance and blood).  Also, St. Thomas, no matter his immense intellect, was not a Bishop and therefore not a member of the Magisterium.

St. Bonaventure does not even address baptism of desire in his Breviloquium, which is a systematical summary of mediaeval theological knowledge, but rather address the Sacrament of Baptism in the sense that it was made universal (binding upon all, everywhere, for all times) by Our Lord Himself.  I know in the so-called "Centiloquy" St. Bonaventure is cited in regard to the effects of three types of "baptism:" fire, water and blood, without mention of salvific quality...and no mention of "baptism of desire."

St. Albert the Great is often cited as teaching "baptism of desire," and to this day, I have never seen a person actually QUOTE one of his works teaching such.

St. Alphonsus of Liguori is also cited as teaching "baptism of desire" alone as salvific and I looked up his Theologia Moralis to be sure.  Well, to be sure, it's not there.  There is no indication in #96 of the individual being given the theological and cardinal virtues, least of all charity, no indication of anything more than an impulse of prevenient grace occurring, no indication that this happens at the time of death, no indication that this "baptismus flaminis" "saves" one by itself.

St. Ambrose of Milan never taught "baptism of desire" though many say he did because of a eulogy he gave re: Emperor Valentinian II.

I'm not familiar with St. Bernard's works.

St. Robert Bellarmine plainly taught in a contrary fashion to "baptism of desire."

I don't have any idea why someone would say Pope St. Pius V taught "baptism of desire."

Pope St. Pius X never taught "baptism of desire" that I know of.  Though, to my recollection, the Bishop of Mantua does have a teaching of "baptism of desire" attributed to him, though his Catechism of Christian Doctrine isn't in print in its entirety any longer in order to be certain that he actually did teach "baptism of desire."

-- Nicole
Reply
(01-29-2012, 11:51 PM)yablabo Wrote:
(01-29-2012, 03:01 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(01-29-2012, 02:56 PM)Gregory I Wrote: And BOD-ism is the result of a faithless mind, One where God is too small to enable those of good will to keep his commands.

It cries out...

St. Thomas Aquinas, the Angelic Doctor...faithless mind.  :LOL:
St. Bonaventure, the Seraphic Docotr...faithless mind.  :LOL:
St. Albert the Great, the Universal Doctor...faithless mind.  :LOL:
St. Alphonsus Liguori...faithless mind.  :LOL:
St. Ambrose of Milan...faithless mind.  :LOL:
St. Bernard...faithless mind.  :LOL:
St. Robert Bellarmine...faithless mind.  :LOL:
St. Pius V...faithless mind.  :LOL:
St. Pius X...faithless mind.  :LOL:

Also, all these saints were apparently too stupid to see a basic contradiction about a major dogma, unlike yourself.  I am in awe of your genius.  :LOL:

It's "well enough" to say that all these taught "baptism of desire" and therefore seduce the minds of weak brethren with the specious contradiction which is "baptism of desire," but the question as to whether these did, in actuality, teach "baptism of desire" is largely ignored.

St. Thomas Aquinas did not teach baptism of desire, as you've proven by quoting him.  He did teach three baptisms, one which was the Sacrament, two which were contained in the Sacrament (baptism of repentance and blood).  Also, St. Thomas, no matter his immense intellect, was not a Bishop and therefore not a member of the Magisterium.

St. Bonaventure does not even address baptism of desire in his Breviloquium, which is a systematical summary of mediaeval theological knowledge, but rather address the Sacrament of Baptism in the sense that it was made universal (binding upon all, everywhere, for all times) by Our Lord Himself.  I know in the so-called "Centiloquy" St. Bonaventure is cited in regard to the effects of three types of "baptism:" fire, water and blood, without mention of salvific quality...and no mention of "baptism of desire."

St. Albert the Great is often cited as teaching "baptism of desire," and to this day, I have never seen a person actually QUOTE one of his works teaching such.

St. Alphonsus of Liguori is also cited as teaching "baptism of desire" alone as salvific and I looked up his Theologia Moralis to be sure.  Well, to be sure, it's not there.  There is no indication in #96 of the individual being given the theological and cardinal virtues, least of all charity, no indication of anything more than an impulse of prevenient grace occurring, no indication that this happens at the time of death, no indication that this "baptismus flaminis" "saves" one by itself.

St. Ambrose of Milan never taught "baptism of desire" though many say he did because of a eulogy he gave re: Emperor Valentinian II.

I'm not familiar with St. Bernard's works.

St. Robert Bellarmine plainly taught in a contrary fashion to "baptism of desire."

I don't have any idea why someone would say Pope St. Pius V taught "baptism of desire."

Pope St. Pius X never taught "baptism of desire" that I know of.  Though, to my recollection, the Bishop of Mantua does have a teaching of "baptism of desire" attributed to him, though his Catechism of Christian Doctrine isn't in print in its entirety any longer in order to be certain that he actually did teach "baptism of desire."

-- Nicole

That's what I am sayin'! All these assertions and only half mean what BOD'ers want them to mean.

Hardly unanimous. Definitely not universal. Definitely not taught as binding on the faithful.

In other words, it's really just idle speculation. :grandpa:
Reply
(01-29-2012, 11:51 PM)yablabo Wrote: Pope St. Pius X never taught "baptism of desire" that I know of.  Though, to my recollection, the Bishop of Mantua does have a teaching of "baptism of desire" attributed to him, though his Catechism of Christian Doctrine isn't in print in its entirety any longer in order to be certain that he actually did teach "baptism of desire."

-- Nicole

The Catechism of Saint Pius X http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/ma...pindex.htm

Quote:17 Q: Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?
A: The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)