Baptism of Desire: Avoiding the Red Herrings on a Nearby Thread
(01-22-2012, 03:59 PM)Jesusbrea Wrote:
(01-22-2012, 12:46 PM)JoniCath Wrote:
(01-17-2012, 09:38 AM)Spencer Wrote: Dr. Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, The Necessity of Baptism, p. 354: “1. Necessity of Baptism for Salvation- Baptism by water (Baptismus Fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception, for salvation. (de fide.)”

     Excuse me, but this de fide (i.e., of the Faith) teaching of the Catholic Church on the absolute necessity of water baptism for all without exception........ for salvation is precisely why Catholics must reject the false doctrine of “baptism of desire”!  Baptism of desire is directly contrary to the above de fide teaching of the Church: baptism of desire is the idea that baptism of water is not necessary for all men without exception for salvation!

Sorry, but this also comes from a compilation of the words of Dr. Ott:

1. Necessity of Baptism for Salvation

Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, Since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception, for salvation. (De fide.) The Council of Trent declared against the Reformers, whose idea of justification led them to deny it, the necessity of Baptism for salvation: Si quis dixerit, baptismum liberum esse, hoc est non necessarium ad salutem, A.S. D 861 Cf. D 791. As to the moment of the beginning of the baptismal obligation, the Council of Trent declared that after the promulgation of the Gospel B (post Evangelium promulgatum) there could be no justification without Baptism or the desire for the same. D 796. The necessity of Baptism for salvation is, according to John 3, 5 and Mk. 16, 16, a necessity of means (necessitas medii), and, according to Mt. 28, 19, also a necessity or precept (necessitas praecepti). The necessity of means does not derive from the | intrinsic nature of the Sacrament itself, but from the designation of Baptism as an indispensable means of salvation by a positive ordinance of God. In J special circumstances the actual use of the prescribed means can be dispensed with (hypothetical necessity).

Tradition, in view of John 3, 5, strongly stresses the necessity of Baptism for salvation. Tertullian, invoking these words, observes: " It is determined by law that nobody can be saved without baptism " (De bapt. 12, I). Cf. Pastor Hermae, Sim. IX 16. 2.
Substitutes for Sacramental Baptism

In case of emergency Baptism by water can be replaced by Baptism of desire or Baptism by blood. (Sent. fidei prox.)

a) Baptism of desire (Baptismus flaminis sive Spiritus Sancti) Baptism of desire is the explicit or implicit desire for sacramental baptism (votum baptismi) associated with perfect contrition (contrition based on charity).

The Council of Trent teaches that justification from original sin is not possible " without the washing unto regeneration or the desire for the same."

According to the teaching of Holy Writ, perfect love possesses justifying power. Luke 7, 47[b]: "Many sins are forgiven her because she hath loved much." John 14, 21: " He that loveth me shall be loved of my Father: l and I will love him and will manifest myself to him." Luke 23, 43 • " This , day thou shalt be with me in Paradise." The chief witnesses from Tradition are St. Ambrose and St. Augustine. In the funeral oration on the Emperor Valentine II, who died without Baptism, St. Ambrose says: " Should he not acquire the grace for which he longed? Certainly: As he desired it, he has attained it . . . His pious desire has absolved him " (De obitu Valent. 51, 53). St. Augustine declared: " I find that not only suffering for the sake of Christ can replace that which is lacking in Baptism, but also faith and conversion of the heart (fidem conversionemque cordis), if perhaps the shortness of the time does not permit the celebration of the mystery , of Baptism " (De bapt. IV 22, 29). In the period of early Scholasticism St. ! Bernard of Clairvaux (Ep. 77 c. 2 n. 6-9), Hugo of St. Victor (De sacr. 116, 7) and the Summa Sententiarum (V

The arguments on EENs & Baptism of Desire have e been argued to death on every Catholic forum on the internet. The Church teaches that one may be saved if he/she earnestly desires to follow the life of Christ, His Words, His example withOUT water Baptism, if through no fault of his own he cannot receive the Sacrament in the preferred way.

Likewise, if one knows nothing of the Catholic Church (i;e; the American Indians during the period before the missionaries came to their country), one cannot be held accountable for not being a "card-carrying in the pew every Sunday "Catholic. One of the REQUIREMENTS for a sin to be a sin is that the sinner must know that he is disobeying the Laws of God. [/b]

I am a Traditional Catholic in every way. I have not attended a Novus Ordo Mass since Summorum Pontificum was promulgated. I don't like the fact that sin is never mentioned in the N.O. sermons, I go to confession frequently, I believe that the TLM. is the most beautiful thing this side of heaven..........I prayed that Mass DAILY for 28 yrs. BUT, sometimes I think that the Trads are to eager to preach hell & damnation, just as the liberals are to eager to preach "God is just a loving Grandfather-type being that pats us sinners on the head & says "don't worry about it. I don't condemn people".

Both are wrong. Find the middle ground, people. There's a place where BOTH the love of God & His justice exist TOGETHER. [/size]

This, Joni.

Some traditional catholics have a big deal of scrupulosity concerning God's Justice and they forget that God is also a God of Mercy. I myself became very scrupulous but I'm managing to overcome it, because there is holy Fear of God (fear of offending the loved and loving One) and then there's FEAR (as in being afraid) of God. God is not some inorganic turnstile in which you have to introduce a ticket lest you miss Salvation ride; God is personal and God has Will, and, while we are bound by the Sacraments, God is not, and from death forward it is totally up to Him if an unbaptised person archieves Salvation or not; this does not make baptism any less necessary, but I don't believe we are safe to say "he/she died unbaptised, he/she is in Hell".

Remember the good thief. He admitted that he deserved to be on the cross, yet he asked Christ, "Remember me when you come into your kingdom".

Did Christ ask him "have
you beenBaptized. No, He said to the thief, "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."
You are so right that while we must be "in awe" of Christ, there is an unhealthy fear that can communicate itself to others. I admire you for realizing this & trying to see God in ALL of His Glory........His justice, yes..........but also His Mercy.


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Re: Baptism of Desire: Avoiding the Red Herrings on a Nearby Thread - by JoniCath - 01-22-2012, 05:22 PM

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