Baptism of Desire: Avoiding the Red Herrings on a Nearby Thread
#71
In case of emergency Baptism by water can be replaced by Baptism of desire or Baptism by blood. (Sent. fidei prox.) - - - - - - - - FYI, "Fidei Prox" means, "almost a dogma" - or "approximately a dogma". We *are not* bound to believe fidei prox.

The whole "in case of emergency" imaginary scenario neglects or  perverts the the doctrine of Divine Providence entirely.
BODers must actually believe that God is too busy feeding the birds to provide water and a person to baptize one who sincerely wants and needs it.  Behold the birds of the air, for they neither sow, nor do they reap, nor gather into barns: and your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are not you of much more value than they? If birds don't eat, they die - He *could* sustain them on thin air - *but* He doesn't - and if He ever did, there's know way to know it............ He *could* reward salvation without water - but He doesn't - and if He ever did, there's know way to know it.

And let's remember that we are taught from childhood that we had better remain in the state of grace and always be prepared -  because like a thief in the night is how Our Lord comes for *us all*..........
But know this ye, that if the good man of the house knew at what hour the thief would come, he would certainly watch, and would not suffer his house to be broken open. Wherefore be you also ready, because at what hour you know not the Son of man will come. Mat. 24:43


From: The New Catholic Dictionary

Providence
(Latin: providere, to foresee, provide)

Adapting means to an end, God in His Wisdom ordering every event so that the purpose of creation may be realized, and, in particular providing for every human being the means of working out his destiny and of serving and glorifying his Creator, Ruler, Redeemer, and Sanctifier. Saint John Damascene calls it: "The will of God by which all things are ruled by right reason." It leaves no room for chance or for fate. It is the personal act of God in regard to man..........

Reply
#72
(01-22-2012, 12:46 PM)JoniCath Wrote:
(01-17-2012, 09:38 AM)Spencer Wrote: Dr. Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, The Necessity of Baptism, p. 354: “1. Necessity of Baptism for Salvation- Baptism by water (Baptismus Fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception, for salvation. (de fide.)”



     Excuse me, but this de fide (i.e., of the Faith) teaching of the Catholic Church on the absolute necessity of water baptism for all without exception........ for salvation is precisely why Catholics must reject the false doctrine of “baptism of desire”!  Baptism of desire is directly contrary to the above de fide teaching of the Church: baptism of desire is the idea that baptism of water is not necessary for all men without exception for salvation!

Sorry, but this also comes from a compilation of the words of Dr. Ott:


1. Necessity of Baptism for Salvation

Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, Since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception, for salvation. (De fide.) The Council of Trent declared against the Reformers, whose idea of justification led them to deny it, the necessity of Baptism for salvation: Si quis dixerit, baptismum liberum esse, hoc est non necessarium ad salutem, A.S. D 861 Cf. D 791. As to the moment of the beginning of the baptismal obligation, the Council of Trent declared that after the promulgation of the Gospel B (post Evangelium promulgatum) there could be no justification without Baptism or the desire for the same. D 796. The necessity of Baptism for salvation is, according to John 3, 5 and Mk. 16, 16, a necessity of means (necessitas medii), and, according to Mt. 28, 19, also a necessity or precept (necessitas praecepti). The necessity of means does not derive from the | intrinsic nature of the Sacrament itself, but from the designation of Baptism as an indispensable means of salvation by a positive ordinance of God. In J special circumstances the actual use of the prescribed means can be dispensed with (hypothetical necessity).

Tradition, in view of John 3, 5, strongly stresses the necessity of Baptism for salvation. Tertullian, invoking these words, observes: " It is determined by law that nobody can be saved without baptism " (De bapt. 12, I). Cf. Pastor Hermae, Sim. IX 16. 2.
[size=10pt]
Substitutes for Sacramental Baptism

In case of emergency Baptism by water can be replaced by Baptism of desire or Baptism by blood. (Sent. fidei prox.)

a) Baptism of desire (Baptismus flaminis sive Spiritus Sancti) Baptism of desire is the explicit or implicit desire for sacramental baptism (votum baptismi) associated with perfect contrition (contrition based on charity).

The Council of Trent teaches that justification from original sin is not possible " without the washing unto regeneration or the desire for the same."

According to the teaching of Holy Writ, perfect love possesses justifying power. Luke 7, 47[b]: "Many sins are forgiven her because she hath loved much." John 14, 21: " He that loveth me shall be loved of my Father: l and I will love him and will manifest myself to him." Luke 23, 43 • " This , day thou shalt be with me in Paradise." The chief witnesses from Tradition are St. Ambrose and St. Augustine. In the funeral oration on the Emperor Valentine II, who died without Baptism, St. Ambrose says: " Should he not acquire the grace for which he longed? Certainly: As he desired it, he has attained it . . . His pious desire has absolved him " (De obitu Valent. 51, 53). St. Augustine declared: " I find that not only suffering for the sake of Christ can replace that which is lacking in Baptism, but also faith and conversion of the heart (fidem conversionemque cordis), if perhaps the shortness of the time does not permit the celebration of the mystery , of Baptism " (De bapt. IV 22, 29). In the period of early Scholasticism St. ! Bernard of Clairvaux (Ep. 77 c. 2 n. 6-9), Hugo of St. Victor (De sacr. 116, 7) and the Summa Sententiarum (V

The arguments on EENs & Baptism of Desire have e been argued to death on every Catholic forum on the internet. The Church teaches that one may be saved if he/she earnestly desires to follow the life of Christ, His Words, His example withOUT water Baptism, if through no fault of his own he cannot receive the Sacrament in the preferred way.

Likewise, if one knows nothing of the Catholic Church (i;e; the American Indians during the period before the missionaries came to their country), one cannot be held accountable for not being a "card-carrying in the pew every Sunday "Catholic. One of the REQUIREMENTS for a sin to be a sin is that the sinner must know that he is disobeying the Laws of God. [/b]


I am a Traditional Catholic in every way. I have not attended a Novus Ordo Mass since Summorum Pontificum was promulgated. I don't like the fact that sin is never mentioned in the N.O. sermons, I go to confession frequently, I believe that the TLM. is the most beautiful thing this side of heaven..........I prayed that Mass DAILY for 28 yrs. BUT, sometimes I think that the Trads are to eager to preach hell & damnation, just as the liberals are to eager to preach "God is just a loving Grandfather-type being that pats us sinners on the head & says "don't worry about it. I don't condemn people".

Both are wrong. Find the middle ground, people. There's a place where BOTH the love of God & His justice exist TOGETHER. [/size]

This, Joni.

Some traditional catholics have a big deal of scrupulosity concerning God's Justice and they forget that God is also a God of Mercy. I myself became very scrupulous but I'm managing to overcome it, because there is holy Fear of God (fear of offending the loved and loving One) and then there's FEAR (as in being afraid) of God. God is not some inorganic turnstile in which you have to introduce a ticket lest you miss Salvation ride; God is personal and God has Will, and, while we are bound by the Sacraments, God is not, and from death forward it is totally up to Him if an unbaptised person archieves Salvation or not; this does not make baptism any less necessary, but I don't believe we are safe to say "he/she died unbaptised, he/she is in Hell".
Reply
#73
From the Council of Trent, Sixth Session:

Quote:Chapter VI.

The Manner of Preparation.

Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised, - and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves, from the fear of divine justice whereby they are profitably agitated, to consider the mercy of God, are raised unto hope, confiding that God will be propitious to them for Christ's sake; and they begin to love Him as the Fountain of all justice; and are therefore moved against sins by a certain hatred and detestation, to wit, by that penitence which must be performed before Baptism: lastly, when they purpose to receive Baptism, to begin a new life, and to keep the commandments of God.  Concerning this disposition it is written; He that cometh to God, must believe that He is, and is a Rewarder to them that seek Him; and, Be of good faith, son, thy sins are forgiven thee; and, The fear of the Lord driveth out sin; and, Do penance, and be Baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost; and, Going, therefore, teach ye all nations, Baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; finally, Prepare your hearts unto the Lord.

Chapter VII.

What the Justification of the Impious Is, and What Are the Causes thereof.

This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.

Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God Who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the Holy Spirit of promise, Who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His Most Beloved Only-Begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, Who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith He loved us, merited Justification for us by His Most Holy Passion on the wood of the Cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the Sacrament of Baptism, which is the Sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to everyone as He wills, and according to each one's proper disposition and co-operation.  For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said Justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same Most Holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in Whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said Justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity.  For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His Body.  For which reason it is most truly said, that faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circumcision, availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by charity.  This faith, Catechumen's beg of the Church -agreeably to a Tradition of the Apostles - previously to the Sacrament of Baptism; when they beg for the faith which bestows life everlasting, which, without hope and charity, faith cannot bestow: whence also do they immediately hear that word of Christ; If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Wherefore, when receiving true and Christian justice, they are bidden, immediately on being born again, to preserve it pure and spotless, as the first robe given them through Jesus Christ in lieu of that which Adam, by his disobedience, lost for himself and for us, that so they may bear it before the judgment-seat of our Lord Jesus Christ, and may have life everlasting.

The sacrament of faith is that which allows the infusion of faith, hope and charity...without which faith it is impossible to please God.

From the Council of Trent, Sixth Session, Chapter XVI:

Quote:After this Catholic doctrine on Justification, which whoso receiveth not faithfully and firmly cannot be justified, it hath seemed good to the Holy Synod to subjoin these Canons, that all may know not only what they ought to hold and follow, but also what to avoid and shun.

I think that pretty much seals the deal in regard to completing the translation which is Justification and becoming justified, that is, being in a state of grace.  Obviously, if one has a mature mind and does not receive this doctrine faithfully and firmly, he cannot be justified...which justice is a requirement to enter into the Beatific Vision.

From the Council of Trent, Fourteenth Session, Chapter II:

Quote:For, by Baptism putting on Christ, we are made therein entirely a new creature, obtaining a full and entire remission of all sins: unto which newness and entireness, however, we are no ways able to arrive by the sacrament of Penance, without many tears and great labours on our parts, the divine justice demanding this; so that Penance has justly been called by Holy Fathers a laborious kind of Baptism.  And this sacrament of Penance is, for those who have fallen after Baptism, necessary unto salvation; as Baptism itself is for those who have not as yet been regenerated.

So...the Council of Trent, under the authority of the Roman Pontiff, has taught us that Baptism IS necessary unto salvation for those who have not as yet been regenerated...so...what is there left to question?

-- Nicole
Reply
#74
(01-22-2012, 03:59 PM)Jesusbrea Wrote:
(01-22-2012, 12:46 PM)JoniCath Wrote:
(01-17-2012, 09:38 AM)Spencer Wrote: Dr. Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, The Necessity of Baptism, p. 354: “1. Necessity of Baptism for Salvation- Baptism by water (Baptismus Fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception, for salvation. (de fide.)”



     Excuse me, but this de fide (i.e., of the Faith) teaching of the Catholic Church on the absolute necessity of water baptism for all without exception........ for salvation is precisely why Catholics must reject the false doctrine of “baptism of desire”!  Baptism of desire is directly contrary to the above de fide teaching of the Church: baptism of desire is the idea that baptism of water is not necessary for all men without exception for salvation!

Sorry, but this also comes from a compilation of the words of Dr. Ott:


1. Necessity of Baptism for Salvation

Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, Since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception, for salvation. (De fide.) The Council of Trent declared against the Reformers, whose idea of justification led them to deny it, the necessity of Baptism for salvation: Si quis dixerit, baptismum liberum esse, hoc est non necessarium ad salutem, A.S. D 861 Cf. D 791. As to the moment of the beginning of the baptismal obligation, the Council of Trent declared that after the promulgation of the Gospel B (post Evangelium promulgatum) there could be no justification without Baptism or the desire for the same. D 796. The necessity of Baptism for salvation is, according to John 3, 5 and Mk. 16, 16, a necessity of means (necessitas medii), and, according to Mt. 28, 19, also a necessity or precept (necessitas praecepti). The necessity of means does not derive from the | intrinsic nature of the Sacrament itself, but from the designation of Baptism as an indispensable means of salvation by a positive ordinance of God. In J special circumstances the actual use of the prescribed means can be dispensed with (hypothetical necessity).

Tradition, in view of John 3, 5, strongly stresses the necessity of Baptism for salvation. Tertullian, invoking these words, observes: " It is determined by law that nobody can be saved without baptism " (De bapt. 12, I). Cf. Pastor Hermae, Sim. IX 16. 2.
[size=10pt]
Substitutes for Sacramental Baptism

In case of emergency Baptism by water can be replaced by Baptism of desire or Baptism by blood. (Sent. fidei prox.)

a) Baptism of desire (Baptismus flaminis sive Spiritus Sancti) Baptism of desire is the explicit or implicit desire for sacramental baptism (votum baptismi) associated with perfect contrition (contrition based on charity).

The Council of Trent teaches that justification from original sin is not possible " without the washing unto regeneration or the desire for the same."

According to the teaching of Holy Writ, perfect love possesses justifying power. Luke 7, 47[b]: "Many sins are forgiven her because she hath loved much." John 14, 21: " He that loveth me shall be loved of my Father: l and I will love him and will manifest myself to him." Luke 23, 43 • " This , day thou shalt be with me in Paradise." The chief witnesses from Tradition are St. Ambrose and St. Augustine. In the funeral oration on the Emperor Valentine II, who died without Baptism, St. Ambrose says: " Should he not acquire the grace for which he longed? Certainly: As he desired it, he has attained it . . . His pious desire has absolved him " (De obitu Valent. 51, 53). St. Augustine declared: " I find that not only suffering for the sake of Christ can replace that which is lacking in Baptism, but also faith and conversion of the heart (fidem conversionemque cordis), if perhaps the shortness of the time does not permit the celebration of the mystery , of Baptism " (De bapt. IV 22, 29). In the period of early Scholasticism St. ! Bernard of Clairvaux (Ep. 77 c. 2 n. 6-9), Hugo of St. Victor (De sacr. 116, 7) and the Summa Sententiarum (V

The arguments on EENs & Baptism of Desire have e been argued to death on every Catholic forum on the internet. The Church teaches that one may be saved if he/she earnestly desires to follow the life of Christ, His Words, His example withOUT water Baptism, if through no fault of his own he cannot receive the Sacrament in the preferred way.

Likewise, if one knows nothing of the Catholic Church (i;e; the American Indians during the period before the missionaries came to their country), one cannot be held accountable for not being a "card-carrying in the pew every Sunday "Catholic. One of the REQUIREMENTS for a sin to be a sin is that the sinner must know that he is disobeying the Laws of God. [/b]


I am a Traditional Catholic in every way. I have not attended a Novus Ordo Mass since Summorum Pontificum was promulgated. I don't like the fact that sin is never mentioned in the N.O. sermons, I go to confession frequently, I believe that the TLM. is the most beautiful thing this side of heaven..........I prayed that Mass DAILY for 28 yrs. BUT, sometimes I think that the Trads are to eager to preach hell & damnation, just as the liberals are to eager to preach "God is just a loving Grandfather-type being that pats us sinners on the head & says "don't worry about it. I don't condemn people".

Both are wrong. Find the middle ground, people. There's a place where BOTH the love of God & His justice exist TOGETHER. [/size]

This, Joni.

Some traditional catholics have a big deal of scrupulosity concerning God's Justice and they forget that God is also a God of Mercy. I myself became very scrupulous but I'm managing to overcome it, because there is holy Fear of God (fear of offending the loved and loving One) and then there's FEAR (as in being afraid) of God. God is not some inorganic turnstile in which you have to introduce a ticket lest you miss Salvation ride; God is personal and God has Will, and, while we are bound by the Sacraments, God is not, and from death forward it is totally up to Him if an unbaptised person archieves Salvation or not; this does not make baptism any less necessary, but I don't believe we are safe to say "he/she died unbaptised, he/she is in Hell".

Remember the good thief. He admitted that he deserved to be on the cross, yet he asked Christ, "Remember me when you come into your kingdom".

Did Christ ask him "have
you beenBaptized. No, He said to the thief, "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."
You are so right that while we must be "in awe" of Christ, there is an unhealthy fear that can communicate itself to others. I admire you for realizing this & trying to see God in ALL of His Glory........His justice, yes..........but also His Mercy.


Reply
#75
(01-22-2012, 05:22 PM)JoniCath Wrote: Remember the good thief. He admitted that he deserved to be on the cross, yet he asked Christ, "Remember me when you come into your kingdom".

Did Christ ask him "have
you beenBaptized. No, He said to the thief, "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."
You are so right that while we must be "in awe" of Christ, there is an unhealthy fear that can communicate itself to others. I admire you for realizing this & trying to see God in ALL of His Glory........His justice, yes..........but also His Mercy.

You are so right!
......never mind that Our Lord had not yet instituted baptism when He told St. Dismas (the good thief) that. Try to remember that He did not command the necessity of water until sometime before He ascended into heaven.
Reply
#76
So, it's ok to be a Feenyite.

Every time I read through one of these threads, that's the conclusion I come to.
Reply
#77
(01-22-2012, 08:22 PM)Whitey Wrote: So, it's ok to be a Feenyite.

Every time I read through one of these threads, that's the conclusion I come to.

Fr. Feeney, was known as "America's greatest theologian" before the smear job, and he echoed the teaching of the Church. Follow his example and *poof*, you're a "feenyite". 
Reply
#78
Being a "feeney-ite" is not the issue.  Being orthodox is the issue...and baptism of desire is not orthodox.

-- Nicole
Reply
#79
(01-22-2012, 04:39 PM)yablabo Wrote: From the Council of Trent, Sixth Session:

Quote:Chapter VI.

The Manner of Preparation.

Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised, - and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves, from the fear of divine justice whereby they are profitably agitated, to consider the mercy of God, are raised unto hope, confiding that God will be propitious to them for Christ's sake; and they begin to love Him as the Fountain of all justice; and are therefore moved against sins by a certain hatred and detestation, to wit, by that penitence which must be performed before Baptism: lastly, when they purpose to receive Baptism, to begin a new life, and to keep the commandments of God.  Concerning this disposition it is written; He that cometh to God, must believe that He is, and is a Rewarder to them that seek Him; and, Be of good faith, son, thy sins are forgiven thee; and, The fear of the Lord driveth out sin; and, Do penance, and be Baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost; and, Going, therefore, teach ye all nations, Baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; finally, Prepare your hearts unto the Lord.

Chapter VII.

What the Justification of the Impious Is, and What Are the Causes thereof.

This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.

Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God Who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the Holy Spirit of promise, Who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His Most Beloved Only-Begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, Who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith He loved us, merited Justification for us by His Most Holy Passion on the wood of the Cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the Sacrament of Baptism, which is the Sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to everyone as He wills, and according to each one's proper disposition and co-operation.  For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said Justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same Most Holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in Whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said Justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity.  For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His Body.  For which reason it is most truly said, that faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circumcision, availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by charity.  This faith, Catechumen's beg of the Church -agreeably to a Tradition of the Apostles - previously to the Sacrament of Baptism; when they beg for the faith which bestows life everlasting, which, without hope and charity, faith cannot bestow: whence also do they immediately hear that word of Christ; If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Wherefore, when receiving true and Christian justice, they are bidden, immediately on being born again, to preserve it pure and spotless, as the first robe given them through Jesus Christ in lieu of that which Adam, by his disobedience, lost for himself and for us, that so they may bear it before the judgment-seat of our Lord Jesus Christ, and may have life everlasting.

The sacrament of faith is that which allows the infusion of faith, hope and charity...without which faith it is impossible to please God.

From the Council of Trent, Sixth Session, Chapter XVI:

Quote:After this Catholic doctrine on Justification, which whoso receiveth not faithfully and firmly cannot be justified, it hath seemed good to the Holy Synod to subjoin these Canons, that all may know not only what they ought to hold and follow, but also what to avoid and shun.

I think that pretty much seals the deal in regard to completing the translation which is Justification and becoming justified, that is, being in a state of grace.  Obviously, if one has a mature mind and does not receive this doctrine faithfully and firmly, he cannot be justified...which justice is a requirement to enter into the Beatific Vision.

From the Council of Trent, Fourteenth Session, Chapter II:

Quote:For, by Baptism putting on Christ, we are made therein entirely a new creature, obtaining a full and entire remission of all sins: unto which newness and entireness, however, we are no ways able to arrive by the sacrament of Penance, without many tears and great labours on our parts, the divine justice demanding this; so that Penance has justly been called by Holy Fathers a laborious kind of Baptism.  And this sacrament of Penance is, for those who have fallen after Baptism, necessary unto salvation; as Baptism itself is for those who have not as yet been regenerated.

So...the Council of Trent, under the authority of the Roman Pontiff, has taught us that Baptism IS necessary unto salvation for those who have not as yet been regenerated...so...what is there left to question?

-- Nicole

1. Is it a necessity of precept or a necessity of means?
2. Was St. Alphonsus unorthodox? a heretic? a post-tridentine heretic Doctor of the Church?
Reply
#80
(01-22-2012, 05:34 PM)Stubborn Wrote:
(01-22-2012, 05:22 PM)JoniCath Wrote: Remember the good thief. He admitted that he deserved to be on the cross, yet he asked Christ, "Remember me when you come into your kingdom".

Did Christ ask him "have
you beenBaptized. No, He said to the thief, "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."
You are so right that while we must be "in awe" of Christ, there is an unhealthy fear that can communicate itself to others. I admire you for realizing this & trying to see God in ALL of His Glory........His justice, yes..........but also His Mercy.

You are so right!
......never mind that Our Lord had not yet instituted baptism when He told St. Dismas (the good thief) that. Try to remember that He did not command the necessity of water until sometime before He ascended into heaven.

Have you forgotten that God is Omnipresent. He exists in all places at all times. "As it is NOW, it always has been & always will be........... forever & ever. Amen. It is one of His greatest powers ...........He is not limited by time periods or confined to certain spaces.
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