Baptism of Desire: Avoiding the Red Herrings on a Nearby Thread
(01-23-2012, 02:02 PM)Jesusbrea Wrote:
(01-23-2012, 11:46 AM)yablabo Wrote:
(01-23-2012, 01:02 AM)Jesusbrea Wrote: 1. Is it a necessity of precept or a necessity of means?
2. Was St. Alphonsus unorthodox? a heretic? a post-tridentine heretic Doctor of the Church?

1.  It is both, as we have precept binding us to be baptized (Acts 2:38) and precept binding the Bishops and priests to baptize (Matt. 28:19)...and teaching of the Roman Pontiffs from Ecumenical Councils which binds the Sacrament of Baptism as a necessity of means.

2.  St. Alphonsus was neither unorthodox nor an heretic, but neither was he inerrant nor infallible.  Besides that, I have yet to see any credible evidence that he has taught "baptism of desire."

-- Nicole

1. If it is both, it is necessity of means (according to you).
2. St. Alphonsus on Baptism of Desire: “It is de fide that men may be also be saved through baptism of desire — from the chapter Apostolicam, de presb. non bapt. and from the Council of Trent, where it is said that no one can be saved ‘without the washing of regeneration or the desire for it’.” (Theologia Moralis, ed. nova. [Rome: Vatican 1909] 3:96-7.). If Trent absolutely prescribes Baptism of Water as a necessity of means and dogmatically declares it to be so, then St. Alphonsus was not only fallible, he was a heretic; this is the crux of the matter, if he cannot hold per Trent (supposedly) the belief of BOD and he does, that makes him, at the very least, a material heretic (with his level of knowledge, it's unlikely material and rather formal), nothing more.

Is St. Liguori referring to "saved" in the same sense that the Ninevites were "saved" temporally by their penance only later to be destroyed by God?  or "saved" in the sense that at death one enters into the beatific vision?  and If the second is answered in the affirmative, then what happens when a person sins mortally after his "baptism of desire"?  does he once again baptize himself by desire and experience the remission of that sin?  if he can continually re-baptize himself by his desire for the laver of regeneration after sinning mortally, what sense is there ever to have recourse to the sacraments, least of all Baptism and Penance?

-- Nicole

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Re: Baptism of Desire: Avoiding the Red Herrings on a Nearby Thread - by yablabo - 01-24-2012, 02:39 PM

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