Baptism of Desire: Avoiding the Red Herrings on a Nearby Thread
St. Robert Bellarmine Wrote:Our heretics, more audacious than Pelagians, deny that Baptism is necessary, not only for the remission of sin, but also for the attainment of Heaven.  However, those who imagine that there is another remedy besides Baptism openly contradict the Gospel, the Councils, the Fathers, and the consensus of the universal Church.
(On Baptism, Book I, Chapter 4)

"God provides baptism for all His elect." -- St. Robert Bellarmine

One of your star examples contradicts either himself or what you say he says, or both, Paramandur.

"Cornelius and the Good Thief were justified without having any knowledge of Baptism, but everyone knows that the obligation of Baptism did not commence until after the death of the Savior." -- St. Alphonsus of Liguori

"One is the Baptism which the Church administers, of water and the Holy Ghost, with which catechumens need to be baptized.  Nor does the mystery of regeneration exist at all without water.  Now, even the catechumen believes; but, unless he be baptized, he can not receive remission of his sins." - St. Ambrose

"How many sincere catechumens die unbaptized, and are thus lost forever!  When we come into the sight of God, no one will say, "Why was this man led by God's direction to be baptized, while that man, although he lived properly as a catechumen, was killed in a sudden disaster and not baptized?"  Look for rewards, and you will find nothing but punishments!  Of what use would repentance be, if Baptism did not follow?  No matter what progress a catechumen may make, he still carries the burden of iniquity, and it is not taken away until he has been baptized." -- St. Augustine

"You are outside of Paradise, O catechumen!  You share the exile of Adam!" -- St. Gregory of Nyssa

"It is obvious we must grieve for our own catechumens should they depart this life without the saving grace of Baptism."  -- St. John Chrysostom

"Of those who fail to be baptized, some are utterly bestial, others honor Baptism but they delay, some out of carelessness, some because of insatiable passion.  Still others are not able to receive Baptism because of infancy or some involuntary circumstance which prevents their receiving the gift, even if they desire it.  I think the first group will have to suffer punishment, not only for their other sins, but also for their contempt of Baptism.  The second group will also be punished, but less, because it was through wickedness so much as foolishness that brought about their failure.  The third group will be neither glorified, nor punished; for, although un-Sealed, they are not wicked.  If you were able to judge a man who intends to commit murder solely by his intention and without any act of murder, then you could likewise reckon as baptized one who desired Baptism, without having received Baptism.  But, since you cannot do the former, how can you do the latter?  Put it this way: if desire has equal power with actual Baptism, you would then be satisfied to desire Glory, as though that longing itself were Glory!  Do you suffer by not attaining the actual Glory, so long as you have a desire for it?  I cannot see it."  -- St. Gregory Nazianzen

"baptism of desire" does not fit into this seamless garment.

-- Nicole


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Re: Baptism of Desire: Avoiding the Red Herrings on a Nearby Thread - by yablabo - 01-27-2012, 09:54 AM

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