Baptism of Desire: Avoiding the Red Herrings on a Nearby Thread
(01-29-2012, 03:47 AM)Gregory I Wrote: Either a solemn pronouncement (I already know there are none), or the UNANIMOUS and UNIVERSAL teaching of theologians from the time of the apostles to the present day demonstrating the fact (It must be a moral unanimity, not 3 or 4) Teaching it as a TRUTH REVEALED BY GOD. Or the UNIVERSAL and ORDINARY magisterial teaching of the Church, which MUST include the unanimous consent of the Fathers and CANNOT deviate from it in any way, as Per Vatican I.

Is this not what you yourself would ask someone to demonstrate to you?

Actually, if I demonstrate this to YOU ought you not to change your opinion? If I can show that a teaching is so from one of these three categories? Solemn Magisterium, Ordinary Magisterium, Unanimous and Universal teaching of theologians of a truth as revealed by God?

The Ordinary Universal Magisterium...I do not think you understand how this works...  :LOL:

"C. The Ordinary Universal Magisterium (or simply, the Universal Magisterium)

"The body of Bishops led by the Pope can teach infallibly when gathered together in an Ecumenical Council. But they can also teach infallibly while dispersed in time and place. The ordinary and universal Magisterium, despite the name, is an exercise of the infallible Sacred Magisterium, not the non-infallible Ordinary Magisterium. The name uses the word 'ordinary' because such infallible teachings begin to be taught, at first, under the non-infallible Ordinary Magisterium. But when the Pope and the Bishops throughout the world have taught the same doctrine of faith and morals, definitively to be held by the faithful, over the course of some length of time. It is then, when that ordinary teaching has been taught universally by the Pope and the Bishops, that it no longer falls under the non-infallible Ordinary Magisterium, but now falls under the infallible Sacred Magisterium. At that point, it is called a teaching of the ordinary universal Magisterium.

"Ordinary teachings are non-infallible. Ordinary teachings that have been taught universally are infallible. The Ordinary Magisterium is non-infallible; the Ordinary Universal Magisterium is infallible.

"The Pope can teach infallibly under the Sacred Magisterium or non-infallibly under the Ordinary Magisterium. An Ecumenical Council can teach infallibly under the Sacred Magisterium or non-infallibly under the Ordinary Magisterium. But teachings under the ordinary universal Magisterium begin under the non-infallible Ordinary Magisterium and reach their fulfillment, perhaps after some refinement of doctrine, by being taught under the infallible ordinary universal Magisterium. The ordinary universal Magisterium is the most common way that the Magisterium teaches infallibly."

from this explanation of the Magisterium, though I can't necessarily speak for the site as a whole:  http://www.catholicplanet.com/TSM/ordina...terium.htm

It is not that everybody, ever, has absolutely to agree.  But at a certain point, common agreement becomes the weight of the Magisterium.  When you start speaking against the Doctors of the Church and the teachings of saints and popes...shaky ground.
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Re: Baptism of Desire: Avoiding the Red Herrings on a Nearby Thread - by Parmandur - 01-29-2012, 04:00 AM



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