Baptism of Desire: Avoiding the Red Herrings on a Nearby Thread
I hope we are not going round! lol. I look forward to it. Good night.
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(02-01-2012, 10:51 PM)columb Wrote:
(02-01-2012, 08:41 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(02-01-2012, 08:29 PM)Gregory I Wrote: The analogy is faulty, because Our Lord said, I say to "YOU" not, I say to all men. The YOU is the crowd following him, who already expressed faith in him, AND his disciples.

The analogy breaks down after that.

Now, explain to me, how do we understand John 3:5 in regards to BOD? Our Lord was not ignorant, what did he MEAN with these words if some are saved apart from water baptism? How are we to take them?

From Aquinas:



Objection 1. It seems that the three kinds of Baptism are not fittingly described as Baptism of Water, of Blood, and of the Spirit, i.e. of the Holy Ghost. Because the Apostle says (Ephesians 4:5): "One Faith, one Baptism." Now there is but one Faith. Therefore there should not be three Baptisms.

Reply to Objection 1. The other two Baptisms are included in the Baptism of Water, which derives its efficacy, both from Christ's Passion and from the Holy Ghost. Consequently for this reason the unity of Baptism is not destroyed.

Your problem isn't really that problematic.

Those of us who argue agasinst BoD are actually in agreement with St. Thomas. He is maintaining that there is but ONE Baptism and  it's of water which contains also the blood and the spirit, therefore the sacrament of Baptism consists of water, blood and spirt and so the three remain undivided and unseperated.
BoD seperates what St. Thomas states remains undivided.

If that's what you think, clearly you don't know what the term Baptism of Desire means.
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That is not an explanation of John 3:5.

When Jesus says "Truly, I say unto you; unless a man is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

How should THAT VERSE be interpreted for those who die justified without water baptism? Literally, or metaphorically?

In addition, if a person Dies justified by his desire for baptism, is baptism optional for him, since he is already justified?
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(02-02-2012, 03:57 AM)Gregory I Wrote: That is not an explanation of John 3:5.

When Jesus says "Truly, I say unto you; unless a man is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

How should THAT VERSE be interpreted for those who die justified without water baptism? Literally, or metaphorically?

In addition, if a person Dies justified by his desire for baptism, is baptism optional for him, since he is already justified?

There is literal, and then there is literal.  By which I mean, you have already been answered above by both Southpaw and INPEFESS on this point.
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Neither of them directly answered that question. YOu seem sure of every OTHER answer you give me, why so hesitant all of a sudden?

When Jesus says "Truly, I say unto you; unless a man is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

How should THAT VERSE be interpreted for those who die justified without water baptism? Literally, or metaphorically?

In addition, if a person Dies justified by his desire for baptism, is baptism optional for him, since he is already justified?

Your inability to answer the question PRECISELY the way I phrased it simply demonstrates your bad will.

However, I will give you a chance to show some GOOD will:

What do those questions mean?
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(02-02-2012, 04:17 AM)Gregory I Wrote: Neither of them directly answered that question. YOu seem sure of every OTHER answer you give me, why so hesitant all of a sudden?

When Jesus says "Truly, I say unto you; unless a man is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

How should THAT VERSE be interpreted for those who die justified without water baptism? Literally, or metaphorically?

In addition, if a person Dies justified by his desire for baptism, is baptism optional for him, since he is already justified?

Your inability to answer the question PRECISELY the way I phrased it simply demonstrates your bad will.

However, I will give you a chance to show some GOOD will:

What do those questions mean?

They answered your question by showing that your reading would imply any baby who dies without receiving the Eucharist would go straight to hell.  Your reading is not even literal.

No, someone who dies justified by BoD dies participating in Baptism THROUGH HIS DESIRE FOR THE LATHER OF REGENERATION, as the Council teaches.  If justified at death, then saved, by definition.

Your inability to see that your question is phrased incorrectly demonstrates the quality of your own will, sirrah.  LOL  I refuse to answer it as you phrased it, BECAUSE YOUR TERMS ARE WRONG.  It's not that my will is bad, but that I refuse to play the game by false rules, which if you would bother to read the OP, is the entire problem with the Feeneyite position.
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(02-02-2012, 02:52 AM)SouthpawLink Wrote: Gregory I,
I shall try to answer you tomorrow, but I fear we may be going around in circles.  God bless!

Why on earth would you ever fear thatSmile Huh?  I think it has been happening for years and not only in this forum or with Gregory.

I'm looking forward to more from you,  SouthpawLink (and you too Gregory if the conversation is not circular after all)
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(02-02-2012, 04:17 AM)Gregory I Wrote: Neither of them directly answered that question. YOu seem sure of every OTHER answer you give me, why so hesitant all of a sudden?

When Jesus says "Truly, I say unto you; unless a man is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

How should THAT VERSE be interpreted for those who die justified without water baptism? Literally, or metaphorically?

In addition, if a person Dies justified by his desire for baptism, is baptism optional for him, since he is already justified?

Your inability to answer the question PRECISELY the way I phrased it simply demonstrates your bad will.

However, I will give you a chance to show some GOOD will:

What do those questions mean?

Jesus says "Truly, I say unto you; unless a man is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

If I say "unless this plant is watered, it will die" or "water is necessary for a plant" am I speaking metaphorically? Or aren't  I  rather allowing an unspoken exception: God can make the plant  thrive without water?  Infrequent exceptions or substitutions are often not mentioned in human speech.  Christ is speaking to humans.  He has good reasons for not mentioning any exceptions - it would detract from the main  command.  The words of Christ are not whispered between the Persons of the Trinity, binding them to water, they are spoken by Christ to man. 

Baptism is not an option.  If a man would receive baptism of desire sometime before death, and all impediments were then removed, he would still bound by the commandment for the sacrament!  Baptism of desire is an exception to the need for the Sacrament only if a man dies before he is able to receive the Sacrament.
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