January 1st: The Mass of the Holy Father--TAKE A LOOK!
#31
(01-02-2012, 12:15 AM)JayneK Wrote:
(01-01-2012, 11:33 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: I'm glad the Holy Father wore some fabulous looking vestments for mass.  But I'm not "happy" about it because the problem remains, the NO.  COTT?  Good.  Proper vestments?  Good.  STILL keeping the mass of all time locked in a box to be taken out just for the sake of appeasing difficult and slow to change Catholics?  nuh-uh.  If they're going to say the NO, they might as well go "all out." 

The whole point Fr. Z. was making was that the change back is "brick by brick".  He was saying that these good things he described were steps in the right direction, not that the problem is solved.  Change takes time.  We need to train a new generation of priests who can say the TLM.  We need a laity that understands our true role and stops trying to usurp the priest's. 

When God led the Hebrews out of slavery in Egypt, He let them wander in the wilderness for 40 years because they were not ready for the Promised Land.  There had to be time for a new generation to grow up who were accustomed to freedom.  God acts in His own timing not ours.  He is just as able to lead His people as He ever was.
The problem is that the next Pope might favor a return to 70's and 80's style vestments and liturgy and where does the 'brick by brick" mentality fit in then?
Pope Benedict, may God grant him long life, might die soon and all the good he has done could possibly undone.
An "anti-Summorum Pontificum" comes to mind with the next Pope.
But this is just speculation.
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#32
I hadn't actually thought of that, Dan.  Good point.  A pope is only a pope so long, and if a pope is a true friend to Tradition, then he knows he can't count on his predecessor to continue the "brick by brick."

Benedict 16 is the pope, and he's a better pope than we've had since, well, a long while.  But his office has only shown that he is a tolerator of Tradition, not a friend of it.  He is the pope.  He says, we do.  He does not NEED to go "brick by brick."  He doesn't have to make the changes overnight literally, but he can very well make them quicker and with more authority and clarity than he has.  That's all.  Bells and smells are nice, but it doesn't cover up the stink of the NO. 
More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
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#33
(01-02-2012, 12:15 AM)JayneK Wrote:
(01-01-2012, 11:33 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: I'm glad the Holy Father wore some fabulous looking vestments for mass.  But I'm not "happy" about it because the problem remains, the NO.  COTT?  Good.  Proper vestments?  Good.  STILL keeping the mass of all time locked in a box to be taken out just for the sake of appeasing difficult and slow to change Catholics?  nuh-uh.  If they're going to say the NO, they might as well go "all out." 

The whole point Fr. Z. was making was that the change back is "brick by brick".  He was saying that these good things he described were steps in the right direction, not that the problem is solved.  Change takes time.  We need to train a new generation of priests who can say the TLM.  We need a laity that understands our true role and stops trying to usurp the priest's. 

When God led the Hebrews out of slavery in Egypt, He let them wander in the wilderness for 40 years because they were not ready for the Promised Land.  There had to be time for a new generation to grow up who were accustomed to freedom.  God acts in His own timing not ours.  He is just as able to lead His people as He ever was.

This
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#34
(01-03-2012, 06:59 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: I hadn't actually thought of that, Dan.  Good point.  A pope is only a pope so long, and if a pope is a true friend to Tradition, then he knows he can't count on his predecessor to continue the "brick by brick."

Benedict 16 is the pope, and he's a better pope than we've had since, well, a long while.  But his office has only shown that he is a tolerator of Tradition, not a friend of it.  He is the pope.  He says, we do.  He does not NEED to go "brick by brick."  He doesn't have to make the changes overnight literally, but he can very well make them quicker and with more authority and clarity than he has.  That's all.  Bells and smells are nice, but it doesn't cover up the stink of the NO. 
I could not agree more, Mith.
Thats why I pray for Cardinal Burke or Ranjith or Bishop Schneider to become Pope.
Come on Holy Ghost!
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#35
Brick by brick...unto final apostasy. Let us renew our prayers.

Luke 18:8 Wrote:"But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?"
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#36
(01-03-2012, 07:03 PM)Old Salt Wrote:
(01-03-2012, 06:59 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: I hadn't actually thought of that, Dan.  Good point.  A pope is only a pope so long, and if a pope is a true friend to Tradition, then he knows he can't count on his predecessor to continue the "brick by brick."

Benedict 16 is the pope, and he's a better pope than we've had since, well, a long while.  But his office has only shown that he is a tolerator of Tradition, not a friend of it.  He is the pope.  He says, we do.  He does not NEED to go "brick by brick."  He doesn't have to make the changes overnight literally, but he can very well make them quicker and with more authority and clarity than he has.  That's all.  Bells and smells are nice, but it doesn't cover up the stink of the NO. 
I could not agree more, Mith.
Thats why I pray for Cardinal Burke or Ranjith or Bishop Schneider to become Pope.
Come on Holy Ghost!

Scheider is the better of the three...  Burke defended Assisi and Ranjith encouraged fasting on a buddhist feastday; Schneider, AFAIK has not done anything scandalous nor did he approve publicly of any scandalous act; I actually think his proposal about the "Syllabus of errors" concerning faulty interpretations of VII documents is the most traditionally-minded thing that has come out of any prelate outside the SSPX or in "full communion" (whatever that means); because he implicitly aknowledges that the VII documents are ambiguous and therefore erroneous in themselves; this is something that I haven't seen as yet coming from Burke or Ranjith, though Ranjith expressed desire for the restoration of the TLM.
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#37
(01-03-2012, 06:59 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: I hadn't actually thought of that, Dan.  Good point.  A pope is only a pope so long, and if a pope is a true friend to Tradition, then he knows he can't count on his predecessor to continue the "brick by brick."

Benedict 16 is the pope, and he's a better pope than we've had since, well, a long while.  But his office has only shown that he is a tolerator of Tradition, not a friend of it.  He is the pope.  He says, we do.  He does not NEED to go "brick by brick."  He doesn't have to make the changes overnight literally, but he can very well make them quicker and with more authority and clarity than he has.  That's all.  Bells and smells are nice, but it doesn't cover up the stink of the NO. 

The pope is probably counting on God, rather than on his successor.  You have never been in position of such great responsibility and are not aware of all the factors that must be considered.  How can you possibly judge?
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#38
What about the Fatima factor? Does Our Lady not understand the reasons for not carrying out the consecration of Russia or for the lies he told the entire world in June 2000 about the Third Secret?

Stop pretending.
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#39
(01-03-2012, 08:44 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(01-03-2012, 06:59 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: I hadn't actually thought of that, Dan.  Good point.  A pope is only a pope so long, and if a pope is a true friend to Tradition, then he knows he can't count on his predecessor to continue the "brick by brick."

Benedict 16 is the pope, and he's a better pope than we've had since, well, a long while.  But his office has only shown that he is a tolerator of Tradition, not a friend of it.  He is the pope.  He says, we do.  He does not NEED to go "brick by brick."  He doesn't have to make the changes overnight literally, but he can very well make them quicker and with more authority and clarity than he has.  That's all.  Bells and smells are nice, but it doesn't cover up the stink of the NO. 

The pope is probably counting on God, rather than on his successor.  You have never been in position of such great responsibility and are not aware of all the factors that must be considered.  How can you possibly judge?

Judge?  The nature of the man's office isn't up for judgement, we know what his powers and responsibilities are.  But unfortunately, as a whole the current pope has treated the papacy like a democracy- which is what our other recent popes have done.  They've simply went with the flow, letting the popular acclaim influence most of their non-decisions.  Send trads a case of incense now and then to keep em happy and just pretty much keep plowing along.

You're right, I'm not aware of all the factors.  They must be pretty ripe in order for Holy Father to keep the sspx as far away as possible, but let priests and bishops who speak literal heresy, even by vatican 2 standards, well, those men just to keep on keepin' on.  But those trad Catholics that want the mass of all ages?  Keep those fruitcakes locked up, we're not ready to go back in time yet!
More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
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#40
(01-05-2012, 09:39 AM)Mithrandylan Wrote: You're right, I'm not aware of all the factors.  They must be pretty ripe in order for Holy Father to keep the sspx as far away as possible, but let priests and bishops who speak literal heresy, even by vatican 2 standards, well, those men just to keep on keepin' on.  But those trad Catholics that want the mass of all ages?  Keep those fruitcakes locked up, we're not ready to go back in time yet!

I call myself a trad Catholic because I want the Mass of the ages and keep on getting told here that this is wrong.  Supposedly being trad is a theological position.  According to people making this claim, real trads think that going to the NO is a sin and never do so, consider Vatican II full of heresy and the pope himself to be a heretic.  If the Holy Father has encountered much of this sort of thing, some uneasiness around trads would be understandable. 

Indeed it is his support of tradition that is hard to understand.  Pope Benedict lifted the excommunications.  He came out firmly in support of the TLM with Summorum Pontificum.  He engaged in discussions with the SSPX.  He was attacked by the media for each one of these decisions.  And large numbers of trads, instead of being grateful,  continue to treat him with hostility.  He gets nothing but grief for his support of tradition, but he keeps on doing it.  I can only conclude that it is very important to him.
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