The Church Militant............PC is the Dogma.
#11
(01-02-2012, 05:01 PM)Tim Wrote: This is the kind of stuff which makes me crazy. Charity is not Liberalism. Moreover conservatism is not an ideology. Since when is Catholicism part and parcel of conservatism as described by the current political milieu. If you take the blinkers off Christ by today's measurement was very ultra liberal in certain circumstances like not stoning adulterers, or in the OT creating sanctuary cities for murders..What we conserve is what was handed down even those parts which are not conservative.

tim
I think you better re-read this part of the article again tim...........and tell me about "charity".

"The exception to this distressingly pronounced liberalism is assumed to be on the issue of abortion. But even there the bishops have come under criticism from conservatives. At a conference of America’s 250 Catholic bishops within the past decade, the clergy refused to threaten excommunication to Catholic politicians who support abortion. Moreover, there hasn’t been a memorable sermon from the pulpit on sin, hell, or damnation in years."


How many dead babies might've been saved had they taken the more conservative (See doctrinal) view on infanticide and not been so lenient (charitable) on Catholic politicans.
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#12
(01-02-2012, 05:01 PM)Tim Wrote: This is the kind of stuff which makes me crazy. Charity is not Liberalism. Moreover conservatism is not an ideology. Since when is Catholicism part and parcel of conservatism as described by the current political milieu. If you take the blinkers off Christ by today's measurement was very ultra liberal in certain circumstances like not stoning adulterers, or in the OT creating sanctuary cities for murders..What we conserve is what was handed down even those parts which are not conservative.

tim

Good points.  I don't even describe myself as conservate or whatever else any more.  The truth is too vast and complicated to be put into neat labels of conservative or liberal.
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#13
(01-02-2012, 01:51 PM)Tapatio Wrote: Here we go with the immigration topic again.

Just for kicks, here is a line that I just copied from a "Catholic" website regarding Immigration and the new testament:


"I wonder how Mary and Joseph felt about being illegal immigrants when they traveled into Egypt?."

The were simply visitors who eventually left. Holiday makers if you will, who had no intention of overstaying,Modern transport also facilitates immigration legal or otherwise. IN Ancient times most folk never walked more than 30 or so miles and then rarely. Too many dangers and too strenuous.
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#14
(01-03-2012, 12:00 PM)drummerboy Wrote:
(01-02-2012, 05:01 PM)Tim Wrote: This is the kind of stuff which makes me crazy. Charity is not Liberalism. Moreover conservatism is not an ideology. Since when is Catholicism part and parcel of conservatism as described by the current political milieu. If you take the blinkers off Christ by today's measurement was very ultra liberal in certain circumstances like not stoning adulterers, or in the OT creating sanctuary cities for murders..What we conserve is what was handed down even those parts which are not conservative.

tim

Good points.  I don't even describe myself as conservate or whatever else any more.  The truth is too vast and complicated to be put into neat labels of conservative or liberal.

I think Tim points to an interesting dichotomy on the right between traditionalists, who argue that custom and tradition hold society together, and moral conservatives, who argue against things like abortion and homosexuality outside of any tradition or cultural context. Obviously, the two factions aren't fully divided as most traditionalists aren't complete historicists and most moral conservatives also defend tradition insofar as it promotes conservative moral norms in Western society, but there does seem to be a real division between those who believe we should be critical of Enlightenment standards of reason and those who accept those standards and attempt to use them to argue in favor of conservative moral positions. Maistre vs. Bonald, you could say. Given this dichotomy, I suppose you would have to say that the moral conservatives are the more popular group when you consider that the standard argument against abortion is that it violates the individual autonomy and inalienable rights of the unborn child.

Interestingly enough, this division also seems to have existed in modern theology, so maybe it is part of a more general division within groups that oppose modernity that goes beyond politics and into art and religion as well.
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#15
(01-02-2012, 04:25 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: [Image: immigration.png]

Immigration is a complicated matter and obviously the Pope's authority over faith and morals are limited when it comes to telling a country what its immigration policy should be.  But, I was just pointing out that Church has in the past been very favorable to liberal immigration laws when they benefit Catholics, so there isn't anything really new here.  And, I don't see the Church today running out demanding easier immigration for Muslims into Europe.  

This is a great post.
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#16
(01-03-2012, 04:04 PM)Crusader_Philly Wrote:
(01-02-2012, 04:25 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: [Image: immigration.png]

Immigration is a complicated matter and obviously the Pope's authority over faith and morals are limited when it comes to telling a country what its immigration policy should be.  But, I was just pointing out that Church has in the past been very favorable to liberal immigration laws when they benefit Catholics, so there isn't anything really new here.  And, I don't see the Church today running out demanding easier immigration for Muslims into Europe.  

This is a great post.
Spot on.
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#17
(01-03-2012, 03:49 PM)Crusading Philologist Wrote:
(01-03-2012, 12:00 PM)drummerboy Wrote:
(01-02-2012, 05:01 PM)Tim Wrote: This is the kind of stuff which makes me crazy. Charity is not Liberalism. Moreover conservatism is not an ideology. Since when is Catholicism part and parcel of conservatism as described by the current political milieu. If you take the blinkers off Christ by today's measurement was very ultra liberal in certain circumstances like not stoning adulterers, or in the OT creating sanctuary cities for murders..What we conserve is what was handed down even those parts which are not conservative.

tim

Good points.  I don't even describe myself as conservate or whatever else any more.  The truth is too vast and complicated to be put into neat labels of conservative or liberal.

I think Tim points to an interesting dichotomy on the right between traditionalists, who argue that custom and tradition hold society together, and moral conservatives, who argue against things like abortion and homosexuality outside of any tradition or cultural context. Obviously, the two factions aren't fully divided as most traditionalists aren't complete historicists and most moral conservatives also defend tradition insofar as it promotes conservative moral norms in Western society, but there does seem to be a real division between those who believe we should be critical of Enlightenment standards of reason and those who accept those standards and attempt to use them to argue in favor of conservative moral positions. Maistre vs. Bonald, you could say. Given this dichotomy, I suppose you would have to say that the moral conservatives are the more popular group when you consider that the standard argument against abortion is that it violates the individual autonomy and inalienable rights of the unborn child.

Interestingly enough, this division also seems to have existed in modern theology, so maybe it is part of a more general division within groups that oppose modernity that goes beyond politics and into art and religion as well.

I hope traditionalists don't rely only on tradition and custom to defend and support their beliefs.  Catholics have a proud history of supporting and encouraging rational thought and debate about our faith and why certain things are moral or immoral.
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#18
(01-03-2012, 05:55 PM)drummerboy Wrote:
(01-03-2012, 03:49 PM)Crusading Philologist Wrote:
(01-03-2012, 12:00 PM)drummerboy Wrote:
(01-02-2012, 05:01 PM)Tim Wrote: This is the kind of stuff which makes me crazy. Charity is not Liberalism. Moreover conservatism is not an ideology. Since when is Catholicism part and parcel of conservatism as described by the current political milieu. If you take the blinkers off Christ by today's measurement was very ultra liberal in certain circumstances like not stoning adulterers, or in the OT creating sanctuary cities for murders..What we conserve is what was handed down even those parts which are not conservative.

tim

Good points.  I don't even describe myself as conservate or whatever else any more.  The truth is too vast and complicated to be put into neat labels of conservative or liberal.

I think Tim points to an interesting dichotomy on the right between traditionalists, who argue that custom and tradition hold society together, and moral conservatives, who argue against things like abortion and homosexuality outside of any tradition or cultural context. Obviously, the two factions aren't fully divided as most traditionalists aren't complete historicists and most moral conservatives also defend tradition insofar as it promotes conservative moral norms in Western society, but there does seem to be a real division between those who believe we should be critical of Enlightenment standards of reason and those who accept those standards and attempt to use them to argue in favor of conservative moral positions. Maistre vs. Bonald, you could say. Given this dichotomy, I suppose you would have to say that the moral conservatives are the more popular group when you consider that the standard argument against abortion is that it violates the individual autonomy and inalienable rights of the unborn child.

Interestingly enough, this division also seems to have existed in modern theology, so maybe it is part of a more general division within groups that oppose modernity that goes beyond politics and into art and religion as well.

I hope traditionalists don't rely only on tradition and custom to defend and support their beliefs.  Catholics have a proud history of supporting and encouraging rational thought and debate about our faith and why certain things are moral or immoral.

Yeah, I think most people are a balance between the two, though I think one could also argue that reason itself is dependent on tradition. He's not necessarily a political conservatism, but I think Alasdair MacIntyre is a good example of a conservative Catholic who makes this point.
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#19
(01-02-2012, 04:25 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: [Image: immigration.png]

Immigration is a complicated matter and obviously the Pope's authority over faith and morals are limited when it comes to telling a country what its immigration policy should be.  But, I was just pointing out that Church has in the past been very favorable to liberal immigration laws when they benefit Catholics, so there isn't anything really new here.  And, I don't see the Church today running out demanding easier immigration for Muslims into Europe.  
You better do your homework before you post more often;

http://muslimvoices.org/catholic-church-...nts-italy/



By LIZ LESLIE
Posted July 19, 2010 E-mail  Print 
     
Photo: Myrabella (wikipedia)
St. Peter's Basillica, the Vatican. Catholics are working across religions to provide services and assistance to Italian immigrants.

The Catholic Church in Italy works across creed to provide protection and assistance for immigrants, the largest group being Muslim.

The church has faced accusations of self-interest, in the United States as in Europe.

Unlike Europe, the United States’ largest immigrant group is Latin American, many of which are Catholic.

Mitchell Landsberg of the Los Angeles Times writes,

“For the church, the perspective is … the right of the human person to be treated with dignity,” said Father Federico Lombardi, the chief Vatican spokesman. “It is a general principle; it’s not just a religious principle. It is more profound.”

Pope Benedict XVI has expressed concern over treatment of Christians in Muslim majority nations. His hope is to extend kindness to Muslim immigrants in Europe so Christians, in turn, will receive the same kindness where they are the minority.
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