purgatory and eternity
#11
(01-05-2012, 06:40 PM)Graham Wrote:
(01-05-2012, 06:07 PM)su Wrote:
(01-05-2012, 02:49 PM)Graham Wrote: Why do we assume that purgatory is beyond the condition of time? The Catholic Encyclopedia says Purgatory is a condition of temporal punishment.

Because our bodies don't go there and therefore the concept of "time" would be quite different.

Sure, but two things: first, bodies are spatial, and second, time being different in purgatory is different from time not existing. I think it's safe to assume that purgatory is not beyond the condition of time, especially in light of the testimony from new advent, and may even be spatially conditioned to some extent; it's still a relatively 'human' state, after all.

Of course. The fact that purgatory is temporary, so there is a change of state, although how this sort of time related to our temporal notion of time is difficult to conceptualise.
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#12
If it's the length of time applied to indulgences that sounds confusing, I was taught that this was in reference to how many days' worth of penance the act was equivalent to.  So devoutly kissing your scapular gives you a 500-day indulgence - or the equivalent remission of the temporal punishment due to sin granted for 500 days' worth of penance.

I'm just going by what I've been taught though.
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#13
(01-03-2012, 05:57 PM)Melkite Wrote: If eternity is outside of time, how can people spend an amount of time in purgatory?

An excellent question. Time is a human creation made for the purpose of measuring the movement of objects. Time is also relative to different perspectives. So then, when we eliminate the material objects from which we measure motion, what are we left with? For if  "Purgatory is the state of those who die in God’s friendship, assured of their eternal salvation, but who still have need of purification to enter into the happiness of heaven." then this state must just be, only to be cast off by the mercy of God, through the prayers of the living.

The question of days granted in indulgence further confuses the matter.

Again, a question that I do not think can be answered by many, if any here.
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#14
I'm no theologian, so if I'm saying anything heretical please let me know.  It is completely unintentional if I say anything incorrect.  If time is a measurement of the change, doesn't this demand a few things?  There is a change in the soul from the beginning of purgatory to the end, correct?  So there must be something like time since there is a before and after.  Also, for the saints who are now in heaven, who do not yet have their glorified bodies, there will then be a future even for those in heaven.  So eternity can't be thought of as timeless in the sense of being without movement or as being uneventful, but rather outside this created existence in which we now live.  I fail to see how this forces the conclusion that there are no sequences of events.  Who has been to eternity to see if there is anything to see, touch, or feel?  Who can imagine it or say what is or isn't there?  What is meant by a "spiritual body"?  I don't think it means our bodies are turned to pure spirit, what then would be the significance of the soul being re-united to its body, if the body were no longer a body, but a spirit?  That's ridiculous.  Perhaps heaven will have all the benefits of time, (isn't it enjoyable to see things unfold with anticipation) but be devoid of its evils and limitations.  I don't know, but I must believe it will be better than here, and the main problem with time is that there's not enough of it - so I hope there will be endless time in heaven. 
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#15
(01-05-2012, 08:12 PM)Pheo Wrote: If it's the length of time applied to indulgences that sounds confusing, I was taught that this was in reference to how many days' worth of penance the act was equivalent to.  So devoutly kissing your scapular gives you a 500-day indulgence - or the equivalent remission of the temporal punishment due to sin granted for 500 days' worth of penance.

I'm just going by what I've been taught though.

This is what I was taught as well. And it is the reason, so I understand, that HH Paul VI changed the way indulgences are granted from so many days, quarantines or years, to simply partial and plenary, because the old way was confusing and led to erroneous thinking about purgatory.
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#16
(01-03-2012, 05:57 PM)Melkite Wrote: If eternity is outside of time, how can people spend an amount of time in purgatory?

Precisely because purgatory is temporal, not eternal.  It's not "part" of eternity...
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#17
(01-05-2012, 08:12 PM)Pheo Wrote: If it's the length of time applied to indulgences that sounds confusing, I was taught that this was in reference to how many days' worth of penance the act was equivalent to.  So devoutly kissing your scapular gives you a 500-day indulgence - or the equivalent remission of the temporal punishment due to sin granted for 500 days' worth of penance.

I'm just going by what I've been taught though.

This appears to be confirmed here:;
Catholic Encyclopedia Wrote:To say that an indulgence of so many days or years is granted means that it cancels an amount of purgatorial punishment equivalent to that which would have been remitted, in the sight of God, by the performance of so many days or years of the ancient canonical penance. Here, evidently, the reckoning makes no claim to absolute exactness; it has only a relative value.

God alone knows what penalty remains to be paid and what its precise amount is in severity and duration.

I don't know what the "ancient canonical penance" is!  I'm thankful it is all in God's hands!
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#18
Quote:I don't know what the "ancient canonical penance" is!

From what I understand, back in the early days of the Church, penances were long (months, years) and public.
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#19
(01-07-2012, 01:49 AM)Spooky Wrote:
Quote:I don't know what the "ancient canonical penance" is!

From what I understand, back in the early days of the Church, penances were long (months, years) and public.

Correct.  Also, you could only confess to a bishop.  And your penance was usually something like "light yourself on fire in the middle of the road and do jumping jacks" or "build a church on the top of that mountain" etc etc.

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Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
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