Our Lady of X... have mercy on us?
#21
(01-07-2012, 11:45 PM)PeterII Wrote:
Vetus Ordo Wrote:Her will is conformed to God's, just like the will of the saints. If God has mercy on us, she does too.

The point, however, is that the lines are being blurred by asking her directly to have "mercy on us" as if she were the source of mercy and not God.

But she administers those graces and decides whether we get them or not. It's the Protestants who think we should ask God directly for everything. 

No she does not (decide).  God decides, and Our Lady's will is perfectly conformed to His.  She does not act independently of God.
More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
Reply
#22
(01-08-2012, 12:00 AM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
(01-07-2012, 11:45 PM)PeterII Wrote:
Vetus Ordo Wrote:Her will is conformed to God's, just like the will of the saints. If God has mercy on us, she does too.

The point, however, is that the lines are being blurred by asking her directly to have "mercy on us" as if she were the source of mercy and not God.

But she administers those graces and decides whether we get them or not. It's the Protestants who think we should ask God directly for everything. 

No she does not (decide).  God decides, and Our Lady's will is perfectly conformed to His.  She does not act independently of God.

First, you can't conform to something unless you have the ability to choose.  Second, God has given her the power to decide, which is why the Church calls her Arbitra:

Benedict XV, Encyclical, Fausto appetente die, June 29, 1921, AAS 13, 1921, 334. Wrote:For he [St. Dominic] knew well that Mary ... has such influence with her divine Son, that He confers whatever of graces He confers on humans, does so always with her as minister and decision-maker [administra et arbitra].
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#23
(01-08-2012, 12:56 AM)PeterII Wrote:
(01-08-2012, 12:00 AM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
(01-07-2012, 11:45 PM)PeterII Wrote:
Vetus Ordo Wrote:Her will is conformed to God's, just like the will of the saints. If God has mercy on us, she does too.

The point, however, is that the lines are being blurred by asking her directly to have "mercy on us" as if she were the source of mercy and not God.

But she administers those graces and decides whether we get them or not. It's the Protestants who think we should ask God directly for everything. 

No she does not (decide).  God decides, and Our Lady's will is perfectly conformed to His.  She does not act independently of God.

First, you can't conform to something unless you have the ability to choose.  Second, God has given her the power to decide, which is why the Church calls her Arbitra:

Benedict XV, Encyclical, Fausto appetente die, June 29, 1921, AAS 13, 1921, 334. Wrote:For he [St. Dominic] knew well that Mary ... has such influence with her divine Son, that He confers whatever of graces He confers on humans, does so always with her as minister and decision-maker [administra et arbitra].

Taking that at face value, I reject it whole-heartedly- unless something here is being taken out of context or not being explained clearly.  The only way I can see that working is Our Lady as decision maker in so far as she continually decides to bestow the graces which God choses to give man, through her.  God does not answer to the Blessed Virgin, nor would He need her to decide anything- His will is perfect, and He desires only the best for us, and He doe so always. 
More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
Reply
#24
(01-08-2012, 01:00 AM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
(01-08-2012, 12:56 AM)PeterII Wrote:
(01-08-2012, 12:00 AM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
(01-07-2012, 11:45 PM)PeterII Wrote:
Vetus Ordo Wrote:Her will is conformed to God's, just like the will of the saints. If God has mercy on us, she does too.

The point, however, is that the lines are being blurred by asking her directly to have "mercy on us" as if she were the source of mercy and not God.

But she administers those graces and decides whether we get them or not. It's the Protestants who think we should ask God directly for everything. 

No she does not (decide).  God decides, and Our Lady's will is perfectly conformed to His.  She does not act independently of God.

First, you can't conform to something unless you have the ability to choose.  Second, God has given her the power to decide, which is why the Church calls her Arbitra:

Benedict XV, Encyclical, Fausto appetente die, June 29, 1921, AAS 13, 1921, 334. Wrote:For he [St. Dominic] knew well that Mary ... has such influence with her divine Son, that He confers whatever of graces He confers on humans, does so always with her as minister and decision-maker [administra et arbitra].

Taking that at face value, I reject it whole-heartedly- unless something here is being taken out of context or not being explained clearly.  The only way I can see that working is Our Lady as decision maker in so far as she continually decides to bestow the graces which God choses to give man, through her.  God does not answer to the Blessed Virgin, nor would He need her to decide anything- His will is perfect, and He desires only the best for us, and He doe so always. 

Mary can’t be a decision maker. She is whole-heartedly cooperative with God’s will (Annunciation: Mary didn’t decide to be the Mother of God, but she cooperated with God’s will to become so. Its the same with her being without sin. She didn’t just decide to not ever sin, she was give the grace by God and cooperated with that Grace fully), but she doesn’t decide the will of God. She can pray like us, and her prayers carry a million times more weight, but intercession means she is asking God on our behalf.
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#25
(01-08-2012, 01:10 AM)kayla_veronica Wrote:
(01-08-2012, 01:00 AM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
(01-08-2012, 12:56 AM)PeterII Wrote:
(01-08-2012, 12:00 AM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
(01-07-2012, 11:45 PM)PeterII Wrote:
Vetus Ordo Wrote:Her will is conformed to God's, just like the will of the saints. If God has mercy on us, she does too.

The point, however, is that the lines are being blurred by asking her directly to have "mercy on us" as if she were the source of mercy and not God.

But she administers those graces and decides whether we get them or not. It's the Protestants who think we should ask God directly for everything. 

No she does not (decide).  God decides, and Our Lady's will is perfectly conformed to His.  She does not act independently of God.

First, you can't conform to something unless you have the ability to choose.  Second, God has given her the power to decide, which is why the Church calls her Arbitra:

Benedict XV, Encyclical, Fausto appetente die, June 29, 1921, AAS 13, 1921, 334. Wrote:For he [St. Dominic] knew well that Mary ... has such influence with her divine Son, that He confers whatever of graces He confers on humans, does so always with her as minister and decision-maker [administra et arbitra].

Taking that at face value, I reject it whole-heartedly- unless something here is being taken out of context or not being explained clearly.  The only way I can see that working is Our Lady as decision maker in so far as she continually decides to bestow the graces which God choses to give man, through her.  God does not answer to the Blessed Virgin, nor would He need her to decide anything- His will is perfect, and He desires only the best for us, and He doe so always. 

Mary can’t be a decision maker. She is whole-heartedly cooperative with God’s will (Annunciation: Mary didn’t decide to be the Mother of God, but she cooperated with God’s will to become so. Its the same with her being without sin. She didn’t just decide to not ever sin, she was give the grace by God and cooperated with that Grace fully), but she doesn’t decide the will of God. She can pray like us, and her prayers carry a million times more weight, but intercession means she is asking God on our behalf.

Yes.  What I mean by Mary *possibly* "deciding" is only that she decides to continually serve God, and part of that service is being the mediatrix of graces.  Hopefully that's what Holy Father Benedict XV meant when he wrote the quoted encyclical above, because that's the only thing it could mean without being blatantly heretical.  Mary's decision is not to give grace or to decide who receives it but to be an instrument of the Lord in fulfilling His will, which may include (and does) dispensing grace.  She is not the cause of the grace. 
More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
Reply
#26
Mith: Yes, I was agreeing with you...I think....may have quoted wrong post... :Hmm:
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#27
StrictCatholicGirl has answered the question.  Any prayers asking Our Lady to have mercy on us is not an exercise of the Divine Judgement but rather a plea to her to have motherly compassion on we her children in exile in this vale of tears.  To read is differently is no different from a Protestant saying there' too many Hail Mary in the rosary, it detracts from God, etc.

(01-08-2012, 01:00 AM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
(01-08-2012, 12:56 AM)PeterII Wrote:
(01-08-2012, 12:00 AM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
(01-07-2012, 11:45 PM)PeterII Wrote:
Vetus Ordo Wrote:Her will is conformed to God's, just like the will of the saints. If God has mercy on us, she does too.

The point, however, is that the lines are being blurred by asking her directly to have "mercy on us" as if she were the source of mercy and not God.

But she administers those graces and decides whether we get them or not. It's the Protestants who think we should ask God directly for everything. 

No she does not (decide).  God decides, and Our Lady's will is perfectly conformed to His.  She does not act independently of God.

First, you can't conform to something unless you have the ability to choose.  Second, God has given her the power to decide, which is why the Church calls her Arbitra:

Benedict XV, Encyclical, Fausto appetente die, June 29, 1921, AAS 13, 1921, 334. Wrote:For he [St. Dominic] knew well that Mary ... has such influence with her divine Son, that He confers whatever of graces He confers on humans, does so always with her as minister and decision-maker [administra et arbitra].

Taking that at face value, I reject it whole-heartedly- unless something here is being taken out of context or not being explained clearly.  The only way I can see that working is Our Lady as decision maker in so far as she continually decides to bestow the graces which God choses to give man, through her.  God does not answer to the Blessed Virgin, nor would He need her to decide anything- His will is perfect, and He desires only the best for us, and He doe so always. 

You have to understand the relationship between Mary and Jesus (as far as we are able).  Our Lady's role in  Heaven as Queen and Mediatrix of All Graces does not belong to her by nature.  It belongs to her by the Love and Will of God.  When we say that Our Lord has given Mary this authority over His Graces, that she may dispense them to whomever she so pleases, this is not be confused as to be detracting from God.  It it is precisely because of God that she has this power.  But even more importantly, there is no conflict because Our Lady's will is completely conformed to that of God's.  It's not as if she wakes up one day and says to God "yo son, imma go give some grace to that dude over there, ttyl kthxbai" and he Our Lord answers "naaaaaw!  dun wanna!" to which Our Lady replies "do as you're told son."

It doesn't work like that  :LOL:.  It's introducing a false Protestant concept into the relationship of Mary and God.  That is that Our Lady can ever been in conflict with God.  She eternally settled this question when she said "fiat!" to God's message of the Incarnation.

There exists pure love between them.  Our Lord grants Our Lady her every desire out of no other reason than His own pure love for her, His Mother.  And Our Lady desires nothing else but the will of God.  It's not Mary's will be done, it's God's Will be done through her.
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#28
(01-07-2012, 11:45 PM)PeterII Wrote:
Vetus Ordo Wrote:Her will is conformed to God's, just like the will of the saints. If God has mercy on us, she does too.

The point, however, is that the lines are being blurred by asking her directly to have "mercy on us" as if she were the source of mercy and not God.

But she administers those graces and decides whether we get them or not. It's the Protestants who think we should ask God directly for everything. 

Our Lady doesn't "decide" who gets graces or not, God decides.

Asking or praying to God directly is not "Protestant," since God is the cause of everything and it is He whom we entirely depend on. Just skimming through the prayer that Christ taught us in the gospel, the most perfect prayer of all, we conclude that we can and ought to directly plead with our Father in heaven and rightly so.

When asking for the intercession of saints, our Lady included, we are just asking that same Father for graces or mercy but through his glorified elect in heaven - highlighting our belief in the communion of saints and the Church triumphant - not asking for those saints own personal judgements as if they were the cause of grace.
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#29
I've never heard a direct request for "mercy" either. I think this all goes back to the Temple where Simeon speaks of a sword piercing her heart  to reveal the thoughts of many. Mary isn't Jesus, but she'll listen. I was taught God does not listen to sinner's prayers, unles it's repentance. That's why the Ave Maria, she will take the sinner's request having been revealed to her to her Son. Did you ever notice priest's tell unrepentant sinners to say the Ave ?  Just my 0.02.

tim
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#30
Are we not called to show mercy towards others?  Is Our Lady above such things?  No.  So it's right and proper to ask her to have mercy on us.  Not in the sense of the Divine Judgement, but in the sense of showing compassion and love towards we poor sinners.
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