Our Lady of X... have mercy on us?
#31
(01-08-2012, 08:36 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-07-2012, 11:45 PM)PeterII Wrote:
Vetus Ordo Wrote:Her will is conformed to God's, just like the will of the saints. If God has mercy on us, she does too.

The point, however, is that the lines are being blurred by asking her directly to have "mercy on us" as if she were the source of mercy and not God.

But she administers those graces and decides whether we get them or not. It's the Protestants who think we should ask God directly for everything. 

Our Lady doesn't "decide" who gets graces or not, God decides.

Asking or praying to God directly is not "Protestant," since God is the cause of everything and it is He whom we entirely depend on. Just skimming through the prayer that Christ taught us in the gospel, the most perfect prayer of all, we conclude that we can and ought to directly plead with our Father in heaven and rightly so.

When asking for the intercession of saints, our Lady included, we are just asking that same Father for graces or mercy but through his glorified elect in heaven - highlighting our belief in the communion of saints and the Church triumphant - not asking for those saints own personal judgements as if they were the cause of grace.

But the redemption of mankind was dependent on the Blessed Virgin's assent at the Incarnation.  Her role is not only that of intercession as other saints, but of dispensation as well.  You cannot receive grace from Christ except through Mary. 
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#32
Mith, you vile heretic... halt this madness! Smile

I understand this memorare prayer, asking for the blessed Virgin's mercy, in the same way that we ask for a great king's mercy when we have done wrong, whether by deliberate act or by accident. We cast ourselves at a secular monarch's feet, and beg for his clemency. Appealing to his good will, the mercy we ask for is that of a human decision to pardon us from the specific offense committed against him. We can also ask a king or ruler to be merciful in granting money to this project, or in focusing on that idea.

All that mercy up there is not the same as God's mercy, which is the grace that forgives sin and sins. We do not ask Mary "in thy mercy, forgive me", but "in thy mercy, hear and answer me". It is an appeal to a human person to pray for us. Remember that she and all the saints are not obliged to pray for anyone, just as a king is not particularly obliged to fund the Swine Farmers' Union, or the Guild of Knitters. Out of pure loving charity, they pray for us... but it is always salutary to ask for something, even if we know it is given already... for it's a form of gratitude! Grin

That stuff about her being the neck connecting the head is nonsense. If anyone is the neck connecting us to the head (of the Church and of Humanity), it's the Holy Ghost. It seems more accurate to say that the blessed virgin Mary is a very important organ of the Church, rather than our only spinal cord leading up to the head. The alternative is blasphemy via exaggeration, even if it is unintentional or subconscious. In terms of prayer, the Father is our Head, Christ our neck (the way to the Father), and the Holy Ghost is the heart/will/love leading us upward. In terms of the Church, Christ is our head (of the Church), the Holy Ghost is the neck which connects it all together under Peter's Chair, and the Father orders all things in the body.
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#33
(01-08-2012, 09:42 AM)PeterII Wrote:
(01-08-2012, 08:36 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-07-2012, 11:45 PM)PeterII Wrote:
Vetus Ordo Wrote:Her will is conformed to God's, just like the will of the saints. If God has mercy on us, she does too.

The point, however, is that the lines are being blurred by asking her directly to have "mercy on us" as if she were the source of mercy and not God.

But she administers those graces and decides whether we get them or not. It's the Protestants who think we should ask God directly for everything. 

Our Lady doesn't "decide" who gets graces or not, God decides.

Asking or praying to God directly is not "Protestant," since God is the cause of everything and it is He whom we entirely depend on. Just skimming through the prayer that Christ taught us in the gospel, the most perfect prayer of all, we conclude that we can and ought to directly plead with our Father in heaven and rightly so.

When asking for the intercession of saints, our Lady included, we are just asking that same Father for graces or mercy but through his glorified elect in heaven - highlighting our belief in the communion of saints and the Church triumphant - not asking for those saints own personal judgements as if they were the cause of grace.

But the redemption of mankind was dependent on the Blessed Virgin's assent at the Incarnation.  Her role is not only that of intercession as other saints, but of dispensation as well.  You cannot receive grace from Christ except through Mary.

The redemption of mankind was dependent on God's mercy and good pleasure, on His resolve to become incarnate and die for our sins. Our Lady's assent, while real, was foreordained by God. He chose her to be His mother, not the other way around. Her fiat was already dependent on God's favour who prepared her from all eternity as a vessel of election and purity. That's the whole point of the Immaculate Conception to begin with. She's a tool in His work of redemption, not the cause of our redemption.

Her dispensation of grace can only be understood in a secondary sense. God dispenses the graces through her because He wants her to be honoured. She herself is not the cause of grace, much less the "decider."

And as for only receiving divine grace through Mary, I guess that formulation can be taken to unhealthy extremes. When we pray the Our Father, can we receive grace? When we receive the sacraments, can we receive grace?
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#34
(01-08-2012, 09:48 AM)Laetare Wrote: That stuff about her being the neck connecting the head is nonsense.

Watch your words.  Greater men then you, some of them Doctors of the Church (and one more in line for that honour), have said Mary is exactly that, the neck that connects the Body and the Head.
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#35
(01-08-2012, 10:07 AM)City Smurf Wrote:
(01-08-2012, 09:48 AM)Laetare Wrote: That stuff about her being the neck connecting the head is nonsense.

Watch your words.  Greater men then you, some of them Doctors of the Church (and one more in line for that honour), have said Mary is exactly that, the neck that connects the Body and the Head.

I thought you might say that, my friend...  Blush how about "pious nonsense", then? Doctors can be wrong, as our dear St. Thomas was about the immaculate conception.
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#36
Vetus Ordo Wrote:The redemption of mankind was dependent on God's mercy and good pleasure, on His resolve to become incarnate and die for our sins. Our Lady's assent, while real, was foreordained by God. He chose her to be His mother, not the other way around. Her fiat was already dependent on God's favour who prepared her from all eternity as a vessel of election and purity. That's the whole point of the Immaculate Conception to begin with. She's a tool in His work of redemption, not the cause of our redemption.

Her dispensation of grace can only be understood in a secondary sense. God dispenses the graces through her because He wants her to be honoured. She herself is not the cause of grace, much less the "decider."

And as for only receiving divine grace through Mary, I guess that formulation can be taken to unhealthy extremes. When we pray the Our Father, can we receive grace? When we receive the sacraments, can we receive grace?

Garrigou-Lagrange OP writes: "Thus all kinds of graces are distributed by her, even, in a sense, those of the sacraments; for she merited them for us in union with Christ on Calvary. In addition, she disposes us, by her prayer, to approach the sacraments and to receive them well. At times she even sends us a priest, without whom this sacramental help would not be given to us."

I've never seen unhealthy extremes in regards to theological questions about Mary except from those who deny her efficacy.  Even the craziest apparition seekers who engage in all sorts of imprudence don't claim things like "Mary is the 4th person of the Trinity" as some Protestants accuse.
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#37
(01-08-2012, 10:10 AM)Laetare Wrote: I thought you might say that, my friend...  Blush how about "pious nonsense", then?

It is a widely held belief by some of the greatest theologians, philosophers and mystics of the Church, has been endorsed by countless Popes and even has a Feast on the Roman Calendar dedicated to it.  To call it nonsense, of any degree, is insulting.
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#38
(01-08-2012, 10:28 AM)PeterII Wrote: Garrigou-Lagrange OP writes: "Thus all kinds of graces are distributed by her, even, in a sense, those of the sacraments; for she merited them for us in union with Christ on Calvary. In addition, she disposes us, by her prayer, to approach the sacraments and to receive them well. At times she even sends us a priest, without whom this sacramental help would not be given to us."

I'm sure the grace of the sacraments is given directly by Christ and the merits of His passion.

Quote:I've never seen unhealthy extremes in regards to theological questions about Mary except from those who deny her efficacy.  Even the craziest apparition seekers who engage in all sorts of imprudence don't claim things like "Mary is the 4th person of the Trinity" as some Protestants accuse.

They might not call her the "4th person of the Trinity" but many a time this popular marianism treats the Blessed Virgin basically as if she were God. I've seen it countless times in Fatima, a huge centre of Marian devotion here in Portugal. Many people who don't care for the Church or who don't go to mass at all still flood there every year on the 13th of May to ask the Virgin for favours or to pay for them. Basically, these people have faith in our Lady as a sort of miracle worker, a very superstitious form of Christianity if you ask me. God and the Church are distant if not foreign concepts to most of them.

To claim that there can't be unhealthy extremes in Marian devotion is to be unaware of reality. Perhaps things are more balanced in the anglo-saxon cultures but in Latin cultures it goes really deep sometimes.
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#39
Father Patrick Peyton, the great Rosary priest, had a spiritual director named Father Cornelius Hegerty, CSC, in his seminarian days who explained Mary to him like this.
Father Hegerty said "Mary can do anything God can do. Yes. It's the WAY they do what they do, that is different. God simply wills something to happen and it happens. Mary asks Him for something and it happens. He always listens to Her."
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#40
(01-07-2012, 06:28 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: I wanted to help to better understand prayers that address the Blessed Virgin and her "mercy."  What comes to mind immediately is the Memorarae. which ends ... and in thy mercy hear and answer us/our petitions."  I've heard other prayers that I can't think of that address Our Lady in the context of mercy as well although can't think of them at the moment.

Obviously we revere Mary more than any other saint, but something doesn't sit right when I hear/read/say a prayer asking for her mercy because it seems that is God's to give, hence why it's "Name of God have mercy on us" and "Name of saint pray for us.

We ask for saints and Mary's intercession as a kind of intermediary between us and God, right?  It is not because a particular saint or the BVM can grant anything that isn't God's will anyways.  Our Lady isn't a way of getting around God, and same with the saints- their will is uniformed to His, so when we pray to them, whatever miracles God would work through them He choses to work through them, He doesn't "change His mind" or "decide" to because they had some influence on Him, it's as He has already ordained it to be.  He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, it doesn't seem correct that we would ask for a saint's mercy because they don't have it in any useful capacity, right?

So why do we ask for the Blessed Virgin's mercy?
You are human...you are to be merciful....if I ask you to show me mercy in such and such an instance I am not worshipping you as a God but simply requesting of you that which God created you to be AND COMMANDS YOU TO BE . Mary being the greatest and purest Human being ever created has the greatest propensity to extend that mercy which PERFECTLY reflects  and promulgates the same Mercy from Christ himself. Asking Mary to be mercifull to you is no different then asking me, with this great exception...marys mercy is pure and perfectly wise and her prayers are always heard, while I am a sinfull and silly human being.
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