Our Lady of X... have mercy on us?
#41
(01-08-2012, 11:29 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: They might not call her the "4th person of the Trinity" but many a time this popular marianism treats the Blessed Virgin basically as if she were God. I've seen it countless times in Fatima, a huge centre of Marian devotion here in Portugal. Many people who don't care for the Church or who don't go to mass at all still flood there every year on the 13th of May to ask the Virgin for favours or to pay for them. Basically, these people have faith in our Lady as a sort of miracle worker, a very superstitious form of Christianity if you ask me. God and the Church are distant if not foreign concepts to most of them.

To claim that there can't be unhealthy extremes in Marian devotion is to be unaware of reality. Perhaps things are more balanced in the anglo-saxon cultures but in Latin cultures it goes really deep sometimes.

Vetus, as so often, you speak the truth here, regardless of how unpopular it may be.
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#42
I know what you mean.  Many years ago I was at a Good Friday service.  The prayer booklet had a prayer that said, and I am paraphrasing: "Jesus and Mary, forgive us our sins."  It really made me question that prayer.  Only God forgives sins.




(01-07-2012, 06:28 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: I wanted to help to better understand prayers that address the Blessed Virgin and her "mercy."  What comes to mind immediately is the Memorarae. which ends ... and in thy mercy hear and answer us/our petitions."  I've heard other prayers that I can't think of that address Our Lady in the context of mercy as well although can't think of them at the moment.

Obviously we revere Mary more than any other saint, but something doesn't sit right when I hear/read/say a prayer asking for her mercy because it seems that is God's to give, hence why it's "Name of God have mercy on us" and "Name of saint pray for us.

We ask for saints and Mary's intercession as a kind of intermediary between us and God, right?  It is not because a particular saint or the BVM can grant anything that isn't God's will anyways.  Our Lady isn't a way of getting around God, and same with the saints- their will is uniformed to His, so when we pray to them, whatever miracles God would work through them He choses to work through them, He doesn't "change His mind" or "decide" to because they had some influence on Him, it's as He has already ordained it to be.  He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, it doesn't seem correct that we would ask for a saint's mercy because they don't have it in any useful capacity, right?

So why do we ask for the Blessed Virgin's mercy?
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#43
(01-08-2012, 02:36 PM)Cato76 Wrote: I know what you mean.  Many years ago I was at a Good Friday service.  The prayer booklet had a prayer that said, and I am paraphrasing: "Jesus and Mary, forgive us our sins."  It really made me question that prayer.  Only God forgives sins.




(01-07-2012, 06:28 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: I wanted to help to better understand prayers that address the Blessed Virgin and her "mercy."  What comes to mind immediately is the Memorarae. which ends ... and in thy mercy hear and answer us/our petitions."  I've heard other prayers that I can't think of that address Our Lady in the context of mercy as well although can't think of them at the moment.

Obviously we revere Mary more than any other saint, but something doesn't sit right when I hear/read/say a prayer asking for her mercy because it seems that is God's to give, hence why it's "Name of God have mercy on us" and "Name of saint pray for us.

We ask for saints and Mary's intercession as a kind of intermediary between us and God, right?  It is not because a particular saint or the BVM can grant anything that isn't God's will anyways.  Our Lady isn't a way of getting around God, and same with the saints- their will is uniformed to His, so when we pray to them, whatever miracles God would work through them He choses to work through them, He doesn't "change His mind" or "decide" to because they had some influence on Him, it's as He has already ordained it to be.  He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, it doesn't seem correct that we would ask for a saint's mercy because they don't have it in any useful capacity, right?

So why do we ask for the Blessed Virgin's mercy?
You cant forgive the sins of others?
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#44
I greatly question the statement highlighted below and I am no Protestant.  The Blessed Mother is the greatest intercessor (believe me, I do not have the time to mention everything she has done for me) of all besides Christ, but it is questionable at the least to think she decides who gets grace.  Go back to the Baltimore Catechism.





(01-08-2012, 12:00 AM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
(01-07-2012, 11:45 PM)PeterII Wrote:
Vetus Ordo Wrote:Her will is conformed to God's, just like the will of the saints. If God has mercy on us, she does too.

The point, however, is that the lines are being blurred by asking her directly to have "mercy on us" as if she were the source of mercy and not God.

But she administers those graces and decides whether we get them or not. It's the Protestants who think we should ask God directly for everything. 

No she does not (decide).  God decides, and Our Lady's will is perfectly conformed to His.  She does not act independently of God.
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#45
Although this may seem unseemly to say of the Feast of the Holy Family, I rather dislike popular devotions to the Holy Family. Such devotions often seem to put Jesus on the same level as Mary and Joseph. Of course, Jesus is a divine person, infinitely greater than Mary or Joseph.
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#46
I can forgive others.  However, I went to confession yesterday and received absolution from the priest.  Did the priest extend forgiveness to me or did Christ through the priest?





(01-08-2012, 02:40 PM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote:
(01-08-2012, 02:36 PM)Cato76 Wrote: I know what you mean.  Many years ago I was at a Good Friday service.  The prayer booklet had a prayer that said, and I am paraphrasing: "Jesus and Mary, forgive us our sins."  It really made me question that prayer.  Only God forgives sins.




(01-07-2012, 06:28 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: I wanted to help to better understand prayers that address the Blessed Virgin and her "mercy."  What comes to mind immediately is the Memorarae. which ends ... and in thy mercy hear and answer us/our petitions."  I've heard other prayers that I can't think of that address Our Lady in the context of mercy as well although can't think of them at the moment.

Obviously we revere Mary more than any other saint, but something doesn't sit right when I hear/read/say a prayer asking for her mercy because it seems that is God's to give, hence why it's "Name of God have mercy on us" and "Name of saint pray for us.

We ask for saints and Mary's intercession as a kind of intermediary between us and God, right?  It is not because a particular saint or the BVM can grant anything that isn't God's will anyways.  Our Lady isn't a way of getting around God, and same with the saints- their will is uniformed to His, so when we pray to them, whatever miracles God would work through them He choses to work through them, He doesn't "change His mind" or "decide" to because they had some influence on Him, it's as He has already ordained it to be.  He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, it doesn't seem correct that we would ask for a saint's mercy because they don't have it in any useful capacity, right?

So why do we ask for the Blessed Virgin's mercy?
You cant forgive the sins of others?
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#47
(01-08-2012, 02:43 PM)Resurrexi Wrote: Although this may seem unseemly to say of the Feast of the Holy Family, I rather dislike popular devotions to the Holy Family. Such devotions often seem to put Jesus on the same level as Mary and Joseph. Of course, Jesus is a divine person, infinitely greater than Mary or Joseph.

I can't imagine myself or anyone I know of ever considering Joseph or Mary as competition to Jesus.
The Holy Family shows how Jesus was, at one time, a submissive member of a human family - honoring His mother and father.
The Holy Family is an example of Jesus with the two most highly favored humans ever born - one was the Mother of God, the other a simple man chosen by God the Father to raise His only Son. I don't ever see Mary or Joseph as any sort of threat to our Lord's glory.
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#48
I can understand what you are saying, but its really individuals who are confusing things.  The Church's meaning for these types of devotions are pure.




(01-08-2012, 02:43 PM)Resurrexi Wrote: Although this may seem unseemly to say of the Feast of the Holy Family, I rather dislike popular devotions to the Holy Family. Such devotions often seem to put Jesus on the same level as Mary and Joseph. Of course, Jesus is a divine person, infinitely greater than Mary or Joseph.
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#49
(01-08-2012, 02:52 PM)Cato76 Wrote: I can understand what you are saying, but its really individuals who are confusing things.  The Church's meaning is for these types of devotions are pure.

Of course. I have no problem with the liturgical feast of the Holy Family, or how the Church celebrates this feast in her Mass and Office.

But popular aspirations regarding the Holy Family often seem rather incongruous with Trinitarian monotheism.

I found this aspiration on a devotional website, "Jesus, Mary and Joseph, enlighten us, help us, and save us. Amen." It seems to be making a second trinity of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph; it seems to be saying that Mary and Joseph are our saviors rather than God.
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#50
(01-08-2012, 02:50 PM)Cato76 Wrote: I can forgive others.  However, I went to confession yesterday and received absolution from the priest.  Did the priest extend forgiveness to me or did Christ through the priest?





(01-08-2012, 02:40 PM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote:
(01-08-2012, 02:36 PM)Cato76 Wrote: I know what you mean.  Many years ago I was at a Good Friday service.  The prayer booklet had a prayer that said, and I am paraphrasing: "Jesus and Mary, forgive us our sins."  It really made me question that prayer.  Only God forgives sins.




(01-07-2012, 06:28 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: I wanted to help to better understand prayers that address the Blessed Virgin and her "mercy."  What comes to mind immediately is the Memorarae. which ends ... and in thy mercy hear and answer us/our petitions."  I've heard other prayers that I can't think of that address Our Lady in the context of mercy as well although can't think of them at the moment.

Obviously we revere Mary more than any other saint, but something doesn't sit right when I hear/read/say a prayer asking for her mercy because it seems that is God's to give, hence why it's "Name of God have mercy on us" and "Name of saint pray for us.

We ask for saints and Mary's intercession as a kind of intermediary between us and God, right?  It is not because a particular saint or the BVM can grant anything that isn't God's will anyways.  Our Lady isn't a way of getting around God, and same with the saints- their will is uniformed to His, so when we pray to them, whatever miracles God would work through them He choses to work through them, He doesn't "change His mind" or "decide" to because they had some influence on Him, it's as He has already ordained it to be.  He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, it doesn't seem correct that we would ask for a saint's mercy because they don't have it in any useful capacity, right?

So why do we ask for the Blessed Virgin's mercy?
You cant forgive the sins of others?
Yes but when I pray for God to forgive me I am asking for absolution, when I ask Our Lady I am asking for comfort and asking she forgive me my forgetting her and not doing the things she helps inspire me to do. Mary cannot give me the absolution for my sins against God, but she can forgive my trespasses against her, just as I can forgive the tresspasses from you or you to me. You are mixing up the context to suit your argument. Its like when the Protty says we are worshiping Mary as God because we ask her to pray for us. Never Forget Mary is a living breathing Human being and just as you would ask your earthly mom to forgive you when you hurt her or embarrased her or forgot her in some way...the same can be said of Our Mother in heaven.
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