Our Lady of X... have mercy on us?
#71
(01-08-2012, 05:40 PM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote: And by what Method does Our Father deliver us from the evil one?
His Kingdom and His will is what?
and how is this will accomplished?
by what route or conduit does God deliver to us our daily co substantial bread>?

I'm not sure how the Pater noster can be construed to put the Blessed Virgin in without violating the letter of the prayer. It's a direct plea of the believer to God.

Look, if all divine graces come through the Blessed Virgin alone, if she is the one who decides to whom the graces shall be attributed, if she is the sole vehicle to God, then devotion to our Lady becomes the summit and conclusion of our faith, something completely absent from the gospel as far as I can grasp. It's unsettling to say the least.

Tell me, when I pray for St. Rita of Cascia's intercession with a given favour in mind and God decides to give me that favour through her, does the grace pass through our Lady first? It seems that irrespective of the saint whose intercession we beg for, the process is always the following: "God > Mary > any given saint > believer." This would seem to eclipse the importance of the remaining saints as well.
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#72
(01-08-2012, 05:58 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-08-2012, 05:40 PM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote: And by what Method does Our Father deliver us from the evil one?
His Kingdom and His will is what?
and how is this will accomplished?
by what route or conduit does God deliver to us our daily co substantial bread>?

I'm not sure how the Pater noster can be construed to put the Blessed Virgin in without violating the letter of the prayer. It's a direct plea of the believer to God.

Look, if all divine graces come through the Blessed Virgin alone, if she is the one who decides to whom the graces shall be attributed, if she is the sole vehicle to God, then devotion to our Lady becomes the summit and conclusion of our faith, something completely absent from the gospel as far as I can grasp. It's unsettling to say the least.

Tell me, when I pray for St. Rita of Cascia's intercession with a given favour in mind and God decides to give me that favour through her, does the grace pass through our Lady first? It seems that irrespective of the saint whose intercession we beg for, the process is always the following: "God > Mary > any given saint > believer." This would seem to eclipse the importance of the remaining saints as well.
Heaven is Hierarchical. So yes as Queen of Heaven that is how it would work.
Mary is Dogmatically proclaimed the Queen of Heaven.
As far as attribution of Graces, I'm not saying Mary decides who gets Gods grace, if God wants to send His grace he sends it, ( and one cannot comprehend the idea that Mary would quash Gods will....no one is saying that) but it passes through the Holy Office (if you will) of the Queen Mother who will deliver it "as is" or even I think ask the Lord for extras if the recipient is an ardent devotee of hers. And further a prayer request to Mary may come from a horrible sinner who feels (wrongly) that God the Father is inapproachable, but His Mother is not.
and another thought, through eve (and Adam) death and suffering entered the world because she violated Gods will, the New Eve brings grace and joy and strength through Obedience to Gods will.
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#73
(01-08-2012, 05:58 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-08-2012, 05:40 PM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote: And by what Method does Our Father deliver us from the evil one?
His Kingdom and His will is what?
and how is this will accomplished?
by what route or conduit does God deliver to us our daily co substantial bread>?

I'm not sure how the Pater noster can be construed to put the Blessed Virgin in without violating the letter of the prayer. It's a direct plea of the believer to God.

Look, if all divine graces come through the Blessed Virgin alone, if she is the one who decides to whom the graces shall be attributed, if she is the sole vehicle to God, then devotion to our Lady becomes the summit and conclusion of our faith, something completely absent from the gospel as far as I can grasp. It's unsettling to say the least.

Tell me, when I pray for St. Rita of Cascia's intercession with a given favour in mind and God decides to give me that favour through her, does the grace pass through our Lady first? It seems that irrespective of the saint whose intercession we beg for, the process is always the following: "God > Mary > any given saint > believer." This would seem to eclipse the importance of the remaining saints as well.

Some Quotes from St. Alphonsus', The Glories of Mary

St. Bernard says "that God has filled Mary with all graces, so that men may receive by her means, as by a channel, every good thing that comes to them."  He says that "she is a full aqueduct, that others may receive of her plentitude".
  On this the saint smakes the following significant remark: "Before the birth of the Blessed Virgin, a constant flow of graces was wanting, because this aqueduct did not exist".  But now that Mary has been given to the world, heavenly graces constantly flow through her on all.   

St. Antoninus says the same thing: "All graces that have ever been bestowed on men, all came through Mary".  And on this account she is called the moon, according to the following remark of St. Bonaventure: "As the moon, which stands between the sun and the earth, transmits to this latter whatever it receives from the former, so does Mary pour out upon us who are in this world the heavenly graces that she receives from the divine sun of justice".

St. Bernardine says that for this reason, "all gifts, all virtues, and all graces are dispensed by the hands of Mary to whomsoever, when, and as she pleases".  Richard of St. Laurence also asserts "that God wills that whatever good things he bestows on his creatures should pass through the hands of Mary".  And therefore the Venerable Abbot of Celles exhorts all to have recourse to "this treasury of graces" (for so he calls her); for the world and the whole human race have to receive every good that can be hoped for through her alone.  "Address yourselves to the Blessed Virgin," he says; "for by her, and in her, and with her, and from her, the world receives, and is to receive, every good"

And thus Father Suarez concludes, that it is the sentiment of the universal Church, "that the intercession and prayers of Mary are, above those of all others, not only useful, but necessary".  Necessary, in accordance with what we have already said, not with an absolute necessity; for the mediation of Jesus Christ alone is absolutely necessary; but with a moral necessity; for the Church believes with St. Bernard, that God has determined that no grace shall be granted otherwise than by the hands of Mary.  "God wills," says the saint, "that we should have nothing that has not passed through the hands of Mary".
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#74
[quote]

I use JMJ to dedicate my work to the Holy Family. Not sure what the objection is. Sister Marie of St. Peter, who was visited by Our Lord Himself, used to imagine herself as the Holy Family's donkey as she did meanial, physical labor throughout the day. The Traditional Monastery of discalced Carmilites are dedicated to the Holy Family as well, in my diocese.
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#75
V, no problem at all.  That's pretty much exactly what I'm saying, that JMJ is a familial symbol. 
More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
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#76
(01-08-2012, 06:36 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: V, no problem at all.  That's pretty much exactly what I'm saying, that JMJ is a familial symbol. 

My mistake. I thought you were objecting to using JMJ.
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#77
(01-08-2012, 05:12 PM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote:
(01-08-2012, 05:05 PM)Petertherock Wrote:
(01-08-2012, 04:28 PM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote:
(01-08-2012, 04:10 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: So when we pray the Our Father, the most perfect prayer there is, does God dispense grace through Mary as well?

The turning of Jesus into a "Mamma's boy" is unsettling.
ALL Graces are dispensed through Mary, this is Catholic dogma. Jesus is Head of the Body, Mary the neck. When your Brain controls your body it has no other route then thru the neck. This is how God wants it.

Wow! We agree on something again!!
Peter we agree on alot, you just act like a smacked ass sometimes. Our fight is the fight of brothers.
Observe>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Great video!  :LOL: Yes, we do agree on a lot of subjects. I just don't believe in those Bush did 9/11 whack job conspiracy theories of yours. But I am sure I have a lot of opinions that you would consider whack job too.  :LOL:
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#78
[quote]

Not you PTR, never!


:grin:
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#79
(01-07-2012, 06:28 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, it doesn't seem correct that we would ask for a saint's mercy because they don't have it in any useful capacity, right?

So why do we ask for the Blessed Virgin's mercy?

If saint's don't have mercy, then how could God command us to be merciful?  You cannot give something you don't have.

Luke 6:36.  Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

"Merciful" means "full of mercy," and we are commanded by Our Lord to be merciful.  Our Lady falls under this command as well; thus, She can certainly grant mercy.
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#80
Yep, what DJR said.

Plus, this is not a counterreformation excess either. For example, the Memorare in the OP comes from St. Bernard who preceded the reformation by 500 years. Pleas for mercy from Mary are common all the way back to the Fathers. There are famous prayers from Sts. Gregory the Wonderworker, Ephrem, John Chrysostom, Germanus, Sophronius, John Damascene, etc. in the early Church and Sts. Peter Damian, Bonaventure, Bernard, Anthony of Padua, Thomas Aquinas, etc. in the medieval period centuries before the counterreformation which all plead to the Blessed Virgin for mercy.

Vetus, read a lot of the Doctors and Fatthers on the mediation of Mary, and also later luminaries like St. Pius X. The universal mediation of grace (not of justice, mind you,) has been taught consistently through the centuries, and enunciated by the Magisterium of the Church (which commands our assent). Remember, we are not sola scripturists--Tradition is also very, very important.

I think this is a good explanation of this doctrine from St. Pius X:

St. Pius X, Ad Diem Illum Wrote:12. Moreover it was not only the prerogative of the Most Holy Mother to have furnished the material of His flesh to the Only Son of God, Who was to be born with human members (S. Bede Ven. L. Iv. in Luc. xl.), of which material should be prepared the Victim for the salvation of men; but hers was also the office of tending and nourishing that Victim, and at the appointed time presenting Him for the sacrifice. Hence that uninterrupted community of life and labors of the Son and the Mother, so that of both might have been uttered the words of the Psalmist"My life is consumed in sorrow and my years in groans" (Ps xxx., 11). When the supreme hour of the Son came, beside the Cross of Jesus there stood Mary His Mother, not merely occupied in contemplating the cruel spectacle, but rejoicing that her Only Son was offered for the salvation of mankind, and so entirely participating in His Passion, that if it had been possible she would have gladly borne all the torments that her Son bore (S. Bonav. 1. Sent d. 48, ad Litt. dub. 4). And from this community of will and suffering between Christ and Mary she merited to become most worthily the Reparatrix of the lost world (Eadmeri Mon. De Excellentia Virg. Mariae, c. 9) and Dispensatrix of all the gifts that Our Savior purchased for us by His Death and by His Blood.

13. It cannot, of course, be denied that the dispensation of these treasures is the particular and peculiar right of Jesus Christ, for they are the exclusive fruit of His Death, who by His nature is the mediator between God and man. Nevertheless, by this companionship in sorrow and suffering already mentioned between the Mother and the Son, it has been allowed to the august Virgin to be the most powerful mediatrix and advocate of the whole world with her Divine Son (Pius IX. Ineffabilis). The source, then, is Jesus Christ "of whose fullness we have all received" (John i., 16), "from whom the whole body, being compacted and fitly joined together by what every joint supplieth, according to the operation in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in charity" (Ephesians iv., 16). But Mary, as St. Bernard justly remarks, is the channel (Serm. de temp on the Nativ. B. V. De Aquaeductu n. 4); or, if you will, the connecting portion the function of which is to join the body to the head and to transmit to the body the influences and volitions of the head -- We mean the neck. Yes, says St. Bernardine of Sienna, "she is the neck of Our Head, by which He communicates to His mystical body all spiritual gifts" (Quadrag. de Evangel. aetern. Serm. x., a. 3, c. iii.).

14. We are then, it will be seen, very far from attributing to the Mother of God a productive power of grace -- a power which belongs to God alone. Yet, since Mary carries it over all in holiness and union with Jesus Christ, and has been associated by Jesus Christ in the work of redemption, she merits for us "de congruo," in the language of theologians, what Jesus Christ merits for us "de condigno," and she is the supreme Minister of the distribution of graces. Jesus "sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high" (Hebrews i. b.). Mary sitteth at the right hand of her Son -- a refuge so secure and a help so trusty against all dangers that we have nothing to fear or to despair of under her guidance, her patronage, her protection. (Pius IX. in Bull Ineffabilis).
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10imcon.htm

Vetus, seriously, stay away from the Jansenist and Protestant sites that you seemed to be referencing in the Predistination thread (I only find your St. Prosper quotes in that thread reproduced identically--and with identical citations--on the explicitly Jansenist romancatholicism.org site and your post at the end of page 26 on that thread is a direct word for word reproduction of a quote attributed to C.H. Spurgeon on many Protestant sites). Their stark theology has a way of really stripping down Tradition if you're not careful.


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