Farewell to Vetus Ordo: Share the Memories
(01-31-2012, 09:18 PM)pander44 Wrote: Wrong answer to the question.Maybe find out what a Minim is and relate that to your statement of breaking commandments and denying the existence of God.I won't bother to cite sources as all you have to do is read the Old Testament and you will find what it says about all this.

Yes, Judaism does have a concept of heretic but it is not the same as being a non-Jew.  For example, Orthodox Jews consider all the other branches of Judaism to be minim.  Most non-practicing Jews are considered to be tinok shenishba
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And if you are considered a heretic you shall be seperated from your people.with that I have a basketball game to watch.btw,the part about the orthodox is incomplete
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Great thread this turned out to be. What next? The tenets of rabbinical Judaism?

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(01-31-2012, 10:07 PM)pander44 Wrote: And if you are considered a heretic you shall be seperated from your people.

"Heretical" Jews are still considered Jews by their religious counterparts. Even Espinoza after being expelled from the synagogue of Amsterdam for his pantheism was still considered a Jew.
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Nope,I am not going to turn this thread into anything about rabbinical judaism,just reacting to a statement that is so generalized and wrong.Not only that I rarely discuss the religion of my wife with amateur theologians who already have their minds made up.Vetus, I believe that you are partially correct in that Espinoza,as many others,are still considered to be Jews thru their family lineage,but as far as being considered a Jew religious wise,forget it,heretics are considered outside the pale.
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(02-01-2012, 04:25 AM)pander44 Wrote: Nope,I am not going to turn this thread into anything about rabbinical judaism,just reacting to a statement that is so generalized and wrong.Not only that I rarely discuss the religion of my wife with amateur theologians who already have their minds made up.Vetus, I believe that you are partially correct in that Espinoza,as many others,are still considered to be Jews thru their family lineage,but as far as being considered a Jew religious wise,forget it,heretics are considered outside the pale.

You asked for a source to support my statement and I gave you one.  You have not made any substantive arguments and do not sound like you really know much about this.  I doubt that anyone is especially interested in a detailed discussion of Judaism, so why don't you just drop it? 

BTW, I was born and raised Jewish.  I am a convert to Catholicism.  Thinking about what is involved in Jewish identity is not a matter of amateur theology for me.  It is something I have had to work through to make sense of my life.
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I'm not the one keeping it going.And Jewfaq or any other internet site really doesn't give good clarification,e.g.how about the Reform movement standards.And I don't recall specifically naming anyone in particular (notice I said  naming ) as being an amateur thelogian,just did what others do,I generalized.And while I am not Jewish I have been married to one for 40 years so I think I might have some idea what I am talking about.Maybe I just don't feel like going over the same old tired ground with you people.
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(02-01-2012, 10:18 AM)pander44 Wrote: And while I am not Jewish I have been married to one for 40 years so I think I might have some idea what I am talking about.Maybe I just don't feel like going over the same old tired ground with you people.

You might have some idea what you are talking about but there isn't any indication of it in your posts.  Saying "I know all about this and you're wrong" is not a convincing argument.  If you are not prepared to back up your claims, don't expect people to take them seriously. 
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(02-01-2012, 04:25 AM)pander44 Wrote: Vetus, I believe that you are partially correct in that Espinoza,as many others,are still considered to be Jews thru their family lineage,but as far as being considered a Jew religious wise,forget it

The fact remains that Jews who don't practice their faith, or who even lose it like Spinoza, are still considered Jews by the Jewish community: not spiritually but due to the flesh. Irreligious Jews might be ostracised or expelled from the synagogues - their form of "excommunication" - but they're still counted as part of their people. Jewish identity is not merely a religious one, otherwise it would be easy to catalogue them and there wouldn't be any confusion. Even today in Israel there are still issues when it comes to identifying who is and who isn't a Jew. They eventually settled for family lineage since religious orthodoxy would be an impossible standard to maintain considering how many Jews have become secularised and the considerable numbers of those who adhere to "heterodox" movements within Judaism itself (the Karaites and Reformed Judaism for instance).

Nevertheless, a Jew who formally converts to Christianity, unlike an atheist, is no longer considered a Jew by most authorities, including the state of Israel .
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(01-31-2012, 07:57 PM)pander44 Wrote: JayneK,
             So a person who is Jewish can break all 613 mitzvots,deny the existence of God,etc.and still be called a Jew(Jewish)?My wife wants to know where you get your info from,as she is most unabashedly Jewish.Cite rabbinical sources or a reliable document that backs that statement up.
Heinrich,many of these 613 mitzvots were put into place for health issues ( lobsters,for example were and still are considered by many people to be ocean going cockroaches,bottom dwellers that eat any form of waste available ),limitations on sexual issues ( would you really want to sleep with your sister? ) or certain items put in to prevent identifying from their enemies e.g.read the one about passing children through fires of Molech.

What a disingenous list.  Are you really trying to sell the idea that all of the 613 commandments are commonsensical "don't do dangerous or dirty things" kind of commandments?  Nothing in them that any non-Jew wouldn't be happy to obey for a better life?

Ha.
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