My experience at the NO
#91
(01-27-2012, 12:11 AM)Someone1776 Wrote:
(01-27-2012, 12:10 AM)GottmitunsAlex Wrote:
(01-26-2012, 11:50 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: The Pope has no protection from personal immorality.  But, he can't preach heresy when using his public authority to teach on faith and morals.  
Again, ad nauseam,   agreed.

Okay, so what do you say to this?

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_v...um_en.html
Beatissimo Padre,
esaminato e fatto esaminare il Novus Ordo preparato dagli esperti del Consilium ad exquendam Constitutionem de Sacra Liturgia, dopo una lunga riflessione e preghiera sentiamo il dovere, dinanzi a Dio ed alla Santità Vostra, di esprimere le considerazioni seguenti:

1) Come dimostra sufficientemente il pur breve esame critico allegato - opera di uno scelto gruppo di teologi, liturgisti e pastori d’anime - il Novu Ordo Missæ, considerati gli elementi nuovi, suscettibili di pur diversa valutazione, che vi appaiono sottesi ed implicati, rappresenta, sia nel suo insieme come nei particolari, un impressionante allontanamento dalla teologia cattolica della Santa Messa, quale fu formulata nella Sessione XXII del Concilio Tridentino, il quale, fissando definitivamente i «canoni» del rito, eresse una barriera invalicabile contro qualunque eresia che intaccasse l’integrità del magistero.

2) La ragioni pastorali addotte a sostegno di tale gravissima frattura - anche se di fronte alle ragioni dottrinali avessero diritto di sussistere - non appaiono sufficienti. Quanto di nuovo appare nel Novus Ordo Missæ e, per contro, quanto di perenne vi trova soltanto un posto minore o diverso, se pure ancora ve lo trova, potrebbe dar forza di certezza al dubbio - già serpeggiante purtroppo in numerosi ambienti - che verità sempre credute dal popolo cristiano possano mutarsi o tacersi senza infedeltà al sacro deposito dottrinale cui la fede cattolica è vincolata in eterno. Le recenti riforme hanno dimostrato a sufficienza che nuovi mutamenti nella liturgia non porterebbero se non al totale disorientamento dei fedeli che già danno segni di insofferenza e di inequivocabile diminuzione di fede. Nella parte migliore del Clero ciò si concreta in una torturante crisi di coscienza di cui abbiamo innumerevoli e quotidiane testimonianze.

3) Siamo certi che questa considerazioni, che possono giungere soltanto dalla viva voce dei pastori e del gregge, non potranno non trovare un’eco nel cuore paterno di Vostra Santità, sempre cosí profondamente sollecito dei bisogni spirituali dei figli della Chiesa. Sempre i sudditi, al cui bene è intesa una legge, laddove questa si dimostri viceversa nociva, hanno avuto, piú che il diritto, il dovere di chiedere con filiale fiducia al legislatore l’abrogazione della legge stessa.

Supplichiamo perciò istantemente la Santità Vostra di non volerci togliere - in un momento di cosí dolorose lacerazioni e di sempre maggiori pericoli per la purezza della Fede e l’unità della Chiesa, che trovano eco quotidiana e dolente nella voce del Padre comune - la possibilità di continuare a ricorrere alla integrità feconda di quel Missale Romanum di San Pio V dalla Santità Vostra cosí altamente lodato e dall’intero mondo cattolico cosí profondamente venerato ed amato.
Reply
#92
When confronted with something you don't know how to answer, copy and paste text from another language!
More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
Reply
#93
(01-27-2012, 12:25 AM)Mithrandylan Wrote: When confronted with something you don't know how to answer, copy and paste text from another language!
That's the Ottaviani intervention in original Italian.
In fact, I copied it from the same website that Someone1776 linked the promulgation of the NO mass from.
il Vaticano.
Reply
#94
(01-27-2012, 12:25 AM)Mithrandylan Wrote: When confronted with something you don't know how to answer, copy and paste text from another language!

It's the Ottaviani intervention.  Cardinals Ottavani and Bacci expressed their deep concerns, but accepted Paul's right to promulagte the NO.  That's fine.  
Reply
#95
(01-27-2012, 12:28 AM)GottmitunsAlex Wrote:
(01-27-2012, 12:25 AM)Mithrandylan Wrote: When confronted with something you don't know how to answer, copy and paste text from another language!
That's the Ottaviani intervention in original Italian.
In fact, I copied it from the same website that Someone1776 linked the promulgation of the NO mass from.
il Vaticano.

The Vatican has the Ottaviani Intervention on their official website?  Link or it didn't happen. 
Reply
#96
(01-27-2012, 12:29 AM)Someone1776 Wrote:
(01-27-2012, 12:28 AM)GottmitunsAlex Wrote:
(01-27-2012, 12:25 AM)Mithrandylan Wrote: When confronted with something you don't know how to answer, copy and paste text from another language!
That's the Ottaviani intervention in original Italian.
In fact, I copied it from the same website that Someone1776 linked the promulgation of the NO mass from.
il Vaticano.

The Vatican has the Ottaviani Intervention on their official website? 
Yes it does. Too bad you don't understand italiano. Paisano.
Reply
#97
(01-27-2012, 12:32 AM)GottmitunsAlex Wrote:
(01-27-2012, 12:29 AM)Someone1776 Wrote:
(01-27-2012, 12:28 AM)GottmitunsAlex Wrote:
(01-27-2012, 12:25 AM)Mithrandylan Wrote: When confronted with something you don't know how to answer, copy and paste text from another language!
That's the Ottaviani intervention in original Italian.
In fact, I copied it from the same website that Someone1776 linked the promulgation of the NO mass from.
il Vaticano.

The Vatican has the Ottaviani Intervention on their official website? 
Yes it does. Too bad you don't understand italiano. Paisano.

I can understand it.  Link? 
Reply
#98
It reminds me of the SSPX website. Die Priesterbruderschaft St. Pius X has a lot more articles and documents than the SSPX USA district website.
http://www.piusbruderschaft.de/   Deutsch
http://sspx.org/   English
Reply
#99

From Father Wathen's book" The Great Sacrilege"..Here I can do no better than quote at some length the redoubtable Abbe Georges de Nantes, writing in the June, 1970, issue of his The Catholic Counter-Reformation. After this quotation, I will summarize the most important points in his disclosure.



I have under my eyes, the photocopies kindly supplied to a friend from the Bishop’s House at Nancy (France), and guaranteed to conform to the originals by Chancellor Dautrey, on the date of 13th May, 1970, and under the seal of this Bishopric.

In this document, Pope Paul VI cites his reform o the Mass within the continuity of the liturgical restoration of Pius XII and presents the new Ordo as a "revision" and an "enrichment" of the Roman Missal; and also as a "new arrangement of texts and rites, in such a way that they express more clearly the holy things which they signify."

"The major innovation," according to his expression, is the introduction of new Canons (the Pope uses the word: Statuimus) which are presented as ancient, though they are in fact very modern; and the modification of the formula of Consecration itself, on the pretext of making them all identical: Jussimus... The term "mysterium fidei" is left out and placed within the context of an "acclamation," where it loses its original and full meaning. This rejection represents the work of very sinister influences.

The innovations which are referred to as minor, are concerned with simplification, suppression, or restoration of prayers and rites, the changing round of the order of readings, and the very considerable modifications of the liturgical calendar.

The Pope then makes his concluding remarks – but here we must make a distinction between the Latin text and its so-called French translation. (Tr.’s note – the relevant passages of the English text, as published in the English edition of Oss. Rom., 8th May, 1969, are identical with the French and have been used here.) The Latin text, the photocopy of the original text printed on the Vatican printing press and dated June, has two paragraphs here. The French text, photocopied from Documentation Catholique, in which it is quoted as a translation emanating from the Vatican Press bureau, contains three, the second of which is an invention pure and simple. [Author’s italics]. It does not exist in the Latin text, which alone is the authoritative one...

In the first paragraph of this conclusion of his discourse, the Holy Father expresses his hope that the new Missal will be received by all a sign and instrument of unity: "confidimus." It is through an unheard-of act of violence – abuse No. 1 – that the "Press Bureau" (?) Invented the false translation, which I am now going to read out to you: "In conclusion, we wish to give the force of law to all that we have set forth concerning the new Roman Missal." This conclusion, withs its formally legislative tone, is a fabrication, inserted in the place where the Pope had merely written, according to the faithful translation made by Abbe Dulac: "Concerning all that we have just set forth regarding the new Roman Missal, We are pleased here to end by drawing a conclusion." And this conclusion refers to the confidence that all will find again in this Missal their mutual unity. Whoever has transformed this "confidence" into a "Law" has lied. [Author’s italics].

Having made such a good start, and while they were about it, they invented a second paragraph which does not exist at all in the original Latin text, as photocopied by your Bishop’s House, which I have here under my eyes. (Again the English text is identical with the French – Tr’s note.) Here then is the fraud: "We order that the prescriptions of this Constitution go into effect November 30th of this year, the first Sunday of Advent." This is the essence of the text and it is a forgery. [Author’s italics].

The last paragraph, if you read it as the third in the French of Italian (or English) text, does indeed give the impression of wishing to impose an obligation even if the subject-matter, and the precise extent, of this obligation are left indeterminate. This is what it says: "We wish that these our decrees and prescriptions may be firm and effective now and in the future, notwithstanding, to the extent necessary, the apostolic constitutions and ordinances issued by our predecessors, and other prescriptions, even those deserving particular mention and derogation." Read in the context of the original Latin text, that is to say, freed from the encumbrance of the two forged texts preceding it, these simple words cannot be placed in comparison with detailed instructions and concessions, firm, and intended to last in perpetuity. Here we have a simple statement of the wishes of Paul VI, a directive bereft of any indication that would imply a strict obligation, and one which is not accompanied by any threat of sanctions. The definite obligation of having to follow the new Ordo, which is supposedly contained in the Apostolic Constitution, springs therefore from two sentences, of which the one is an invention pure and simple and the other one contains a manifest mistranslation of the authentic text. The forged text issued by the "Press Bureau" imposes an obligation: that is as much as to say that the true text imposes nothing of the kind. That was the thing to be proved! The Constitution Missale Romanum, in its authentic Latin text, does not impose an obligation. Paul VI does not impose an obligation to follow his Ordo Missae!

However, a communication I received yesterday made me think that Mgr. Pirolley (the Bishop of Nancy), though himself deceived in the first place, has now been put on his guard. I have here a second photo-copy, handed out from [the] Bishop’s House to another member of the diocese, of the famous text of the Pope’s which is obliging the whole world to follow his new Mass. Well – they had more sense this time and, with the help of paste and scissors, they have produced a photocopy, in both Latin and French, of the last of these paragraphs alone – the two preceding ones have disappeared! We may well quote La Rochefoucauld when he said that "hypocrisy was [sic] a compliment paid by vice to virtue." Here is [the] Bishop’s House at Nancy tacitly acknowledging the crime committed in Rome! This is a memorable date indeed!

... There is nothing that can validly annul the Bull of St. Pius V. Paul VI, in his Constitution, does not formally abrogate it, [Author’s italics] and if he takes the risk, together with those who embrace his reform, of incurring the wrath of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, we still have to admit that he is not obliging anyone to follow him into this peril. He does no more than to express a simple and indefinite wish, together with the hope that all may find spontaneously a common unity in the practice of this new reformed form of worship. 60

I am aware that the above quotation is difficult reading. The information it contains, however, has more than just historic significance, so it must be shown as clearly as possible what the passage says.

On the 3rd of April, 1969, the pope presented his "New Missal." The Apostolic Constitution, Missale Romanum is the text of the address he gave on that occasion. It has the same relationship to the "Novus Ordo Missae" as Quo Primum has to St. Pius V’s Missale Romanum. What I intend doing is first show the complete Latin text of the crucial conclusory paragraphs of the decree, then point out the sentence which was deliberately mistranslated, and finally indicate the fabricated insertion. You will see what remains of the "decree."

The following are the last three paragraphs as they appear in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis, which is the official organ of the Holy See:



>Ad extremum, ex iis quae hactenus de novo Missali Romano exposuimus quiddam nunc cogere et efficere placet. < Cum Decessor Noster S. Pius V principem Missalis Romani editionem promulgavit, illud veluti quoddam unitatis liturgicae instrumentum idemque tamquam genuini religiosique cultus in Ecclesia monumentum christiano populo representavit. >Haud secus Nos, etsi, deprae scripto Concilii Vaticani II, in novum Missale legitimas varietates et aptationes ascivimus, nihilo tamen secus fore

confidimus, ut hoc ipsum a christifidelibus quasi subsidium ad mutuam omnium unitatem testandam confirmandamque accipiatur, utpote cuius ope, in tot varietate linguarum, una eademque cunctorum precatio ad caelestem Patrem, per summum Pontificem nostrum Jesum Christum, in Spiritu Sancto, quovis ture fragrantio ascendat.>

>Quae Constitutione hac Nostra praescripsimus vigere incipient a die XXX proximi mensis Novembris hoc anno, id est a Dominica I Adventus. <

Nostra haec autem statuta et praescipta nunc et posterum firma et efficacia esse et fore

volumus, non obstantibus, quatenus opus sit, Constitutionibus et Ordinationibus Apostolicis a Decessoribus Nostris editis, ceterisque praescriptionibus etiam peculiari mentione et derogatione dignis.

Datum

etc. 61

The first sentence of the above, >"Ad extremum... placet,"< was deliberately mistranslated. It was immediately sent around the world. When attention was called to the error, no effort at all was made to set things right. Here are the two renderings:



(Incorrect) In conclusion, we wish to give the force of law to all that we have set forth concerning the new Roman Missal.

(Correct) Concerning all that we have just set forth regarding the new Roman Missal, We are pleased here to end by drawing a conclusion.

Abbe de Nantes tells us that the middle paragraph, i.e., >"Quae Constitutione... Adventus,"< was not in the original text of the Pope’s announcement. It was altogether made up and inserted by members of the "Vatican Press Bureau." These people (or this person, whoever) found the Pontiff’s words a bit weak, and so tried to "firm them up" a bit. It goes without saying that the inserted words have no binding force whatsoever – expect that the Holy Father himself made no move to have them deleted and proceeded ever after as if they were his own. Here is the forgery:



We order that the prescriptions of this Constitution go into effect November 30th of this year [1969], the first Sunday of Advent.

Now, the final paragraph:



We wish

that these our decrees and prescriptions may be firm and effective now and in the future, notwithstanding, to the extent necessary, the apostolic constitutions and ordinances issued by our predecessors, and other prescriptions, even those deserving particular mention and derogation.

The internal evidence to support Abbe de Nantes’ (and others’) assertion is easy to see. In the inserted paragraph a specific date is given when the new "Missal" is to become official. But in the paragraph following it, which I quote below, the Pope says that his "Decree" is to be considered "firm and effective now and in the future." But he neither mentions nor indicates any date at all; whereas, above a specific date is given. This insertion obviously has no continuity with its context.

We have here, then, a clear case in which there is discovered the most perfidious and shameless chicanery in a matter than which nothing could be more sacred or important for the Church and the souls of the faithful, which, after it is brought to light, is ratified by the Pope (at least implicitly), enforced by the bishops, and completely ignored by the so-called theologians and scholars of the Church, not to mention the priests.

We are left with two sentences which contain the Pope’s directive concerning the "Novus Ordo." One occurs in the first of the three paragraphs quoted above. It begins, >"Haud secus Nos..." You will notice I emphasized the word, "confidimus," "We hope." The English is:



While leaving room in the New Missal, according to the order of the Second Vatican Council, for legitimate variations and adaptations, we hope nevertheless that the Missal will be received by the faithful as an instrument which bears witness to and which affirms the common unity of all. [etc.]

The last paragraph has this translation. In it I have emphasized the word "volumus," "We wish":



We wish

that these our decrees and prescriptions may be firm and effective now and in the future, notwithstanding, to the extent necessary, the apostolic constitutions and ordinances issued by our predecessors, and other prescriptions, even those deserving particular mention and derogation.

The point I am making is that, when the text is purged of its forgery and given its correct translation, we find the whole weight of the document and the Act of abolishing the Mass and introducing its deceptive Semblance rests on two words, "confidimus," "we hope," "we trust," "we have confidence that," "we wish," etc., and "volumus," "we wish," "we desire," "we would be pleased," etc. Two words of such thin-voiced wistfulness are supposed effectively to command, nay, force the whole Latin Church to forsake its most precious Treasure, the most essential means for our salvation, completely to forget over fifteen hundred years of tradition (figured most conservatively), to ignore the solemn promulgations, edicts, injunctions, instructions, and anathemas of most of the Successors of the Great Fisherman, to bury in silence the rapturous prayers and encomia inspired by it in the Saints of the West, and, without question or hesitation, to begin the performance of a bureaucratic Composition, whose real meaning and purpose having been the subject of the most resentful criticism and telling attacks since it first saw the light of day. This truly is what our enemies may well describe as "popery" in the authentic sense of the word! As if our religion were nothing more than the dumb and servile fulfillment of the Pope’s mere wishes, totally unrelated to morality, Revelation, history, law, or even plain common sense! If Satan could contrive a more effective way of exposing the lustrous Bride of Christ to ridicule and confusion, what could it possible be?

One obvious question is: Why did His Holiness not speak in tones similar to St. Pius? Why did he not proceed in this fashion: Explain where the Tridentine Mass was deficient and then show how the "Novus Ordo" has merely corrected these deficiencies – without changing any of the essentials thereof? He might next have solemnly curtailed the use of the old Missale Romanum, joining to this curtailment his own weighty anathemas to anyone who should do so thereafter. He might then have expounding detail the doctrinal "richness" of the "New Mass" by delineating clearly the Catholic Truth of its prayers and the reverence of its rites. Then he might have issued a solemn and unmistakable decretal, on the one hand, reasserting the agelessness and unalterableness of the dogmatic truths of Trent, which the "Novus Ordo" supposedly expresses so clearly, while, on the other, commanding all the clergy of the Roman Rite, "Cardinals not excluded," as of a certain date to accept it and adhere to it minutely, under pain of the most serious sin, lest they incur "the wrath of Almighty God and the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul!" Why – it is a perfectly valid question – was this not done? Why instead does the Pontiff, in presenting the world with a "New Mass," not explain how it has been possible to produce something even superior to that Mass of which Pope Urban VIII wrote:



If there is anything divine among the possessions of men, which the citizens of Heaven might covet (were covetousness possible for them), it would certainly be the most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, whose blessing is such that in it men possess a certain anticipation of Heaven while still on earth, even having before their eyes and taking into their hands the very Maker of both Heaven and earth. How greatly must mortals strive that this most awesome privilege be guarded with due cult and reverence, and take care lest their negligence offend the eyes of the angels, who watch with envious adoration. 62

Indeed, in speechless disbelief, one cannot help observing that Pope Paul’s Missale Romanum is as different from Pope St. Pius’s Quo Primum as the two things they bestow on the Church. And one can only comment, "For obvious reasons!"

Let us once more read the authentic text of his proclamation as I have quoted on page 139. Does it not seem as if our Holy Father were almost painfully aware that the eyes of all Christendom (and uncounted generations yet to be born) are upon him and will ever after remember his taking this reckless step? Does it not seem he cannot bring himself to do it with that spirit which befits so tremendous an Act? Notice how glancingly he accomplishes his dreadful task of voiding (if that were possible) the acts of literally generations of Popes:



... notwithstanding, to the extreme necessary, the apostolic constitutions and ordinances issued by our predecessors, and other prescriptions, even those deserving particular mention and derogation. [Italics mine]. (Appendix II, par. 15).

You see, Pope Paul admits that the ordinances of his Predecessors deserve to be explained away. One which deserves "particular mention and derogation" is St. Pius V’s Quo Primum of course. Is it for want of courage or for want of reasons that he does not do so? Surely it is not for want of time.

Ever since the issuance of Pope Paul’s Missale Romanum, even after the disclosure of foul play in its translation and publication, which, needless to say, without reference to anything else, renders it indefensible and unenforceable, and therefore completely null and void. Pope Paul himself has proceeded, not as if he had imposed a law, but only as if he had asked his people to accept his "New Mass" and had been surprised and saddened by the resulting outcry. Never has he invoked his own "decree" as if it were an irrevocable law; he seems barely to refer to it.

In view of all that has been said, it would seem unnecessary to prove that Pope Paul’s "decree" Missale Romanum can in no sense of the word be considered a valid and binding law. However, it may be of some use to present the matter a bit more academically. I will therefore list the requisites for the imposition of a law and show wherein Pope Paul’s is deficient:

1. Concerning the object o the law: The legislator must have province over the mattes in question. The Pope and the Pope alone may legislate on liturgical matters in the Church. Not even he, however, may change the Form of the Sacrament of the Eucharist. 63 His attempt to do so in the "Novus Ordo" renders his "decree" Missale Romanum null and void. Further, and much more important, the Pope does have supreme jurisdiction over all religious matters, but he may not command anyone to sin. Due to its intrinsic heterodoxy, the "New Mass" is not only a denial of many of the doctrines of the Faith, but it is also an act of sacrilege. This is the main cause for the complete nullity of this present law.

2. Concerning the subjects of the law: The legislator must have jurisdiction over those who would be bound by the law and indicate the law itself to whom it applies. There is in this "decree" no indication as to who is bound to obey it.

3. Concerning the relationship of the new law with old laws: The legislator must have the right to abrogate previously existing laws which are contrary to the law he wishes to pass. He must officially abrogate these laws before he can impose his own. Pope Paul has not abrogated the decree of Pope St. Pius V, Quo Primum, nor any other laws which concern the True Mass. In his "decree," Missale Romanum, he speaks thusly: "notwithstanding, to the extent necessary, the apostolic constitutions and ordinances of our predecessors, and other prescriptions, even those deserving particular mention and derogation." Nothing here clearly indicates that all previous liturgical laws will no longer be in effect.

4. Concerning the language of the law: The legislator must impose the law as law. That is, the language used must make it clear that a law is being imposed. As we have just seen, the words used by the Pope concerning the acceptance of the "New Mass" are "volumus" and "confidimus," both of which verbs can be translated as "we wish." These words can in no wise be understood to impose a law.

5. Concerning the time of the effectiveness of the law: The legislator must indicate when the law will go into effect. As we have seen, the sentence in the "decree," Missale Romanum, which contains a specific date is a forgery. The "decree" itself assigns no date for the acceptance of the "New Mass."

6. Concerning the enforcement of the law: The legislator must indicate what penalties will be incurred by those who break the law. No such penalties are indicated in the "decree" of Pope Paul.

As can easily be seen, in the issuance of the "law’ which introduced the "New Masss," NONE of the requisites for the promulgation of a valid law was fulfilled! Indeed, so patently and so completely null is this decree that it is surprising someone has not brought it forth as evidence that Pope Paul is a prisoner in the Vatican, trying through issuance of such a preposterous proclamation to signal to the outside world that he is not a free agent and that no one should take it seriously. How I would that this proof could be found! To the best of my knowledge, the re is no chance of such a discovery being made.

Consequently, the bishops, who seemed to have been in a fog since they left to attend the Second Vatican Council, have no power whatsoever to enforce the "decree." And they have had much too little difficulty doing so, because of the misguided docility and poor theology of their clergy. Where any priest has refused to accept the "New Mass," his superiors have found themselves in a terrible quandary. They have deemed it necessary to make some kind of "arrangement;" usually they have confined the non-conformist to saying Holy Mass privately.

Thus, the whole thing reveals itself with a glare. The priest is not censured, nor excommunicated for heresy, nor suspended for disobedience, which would seem logical. To the extent the "arrangement" can be made to look respectable, the priest is given an assignment which takes into consideration his "condition;" he remains in "good standing," is allowed to minister to the people according to the other laws of the Church and his own conscience, and is treated most kindly (generally). It is as if he were convalescing from something, while the deeply concerned doctors keep consulting for a cure. But, one thing is necessary: he must be withdrawn from the public view when he offers the "pestiferous Mass" – to use Luther’s phrase. Thus this priest becomes, like a martyr, the most fortunate of all his confreres; he is granted the inestimable privilege, which has become so rare, of offering the True Mass. The priest, suddenly and unexpectedly, and beyond all his deserts, finds himself rejoicing that he has been "accounted worthy to suffer reproach for the name of Jesus!" (Acts 5:41).

Obviously then, as Abbe de Nantes has commented, it is not such a priest who is guilty of anything; it is the True Mass (and the people, no doubt, for wanting it back)! The True Mass is being "quarantined," as something vile, dangerous, and catching. It must be suppressed, gotten out of sight, that the people may forget it, that they may stop clamoring for it – the ignorant unwashed "that knoweth not the law." (Jn. 7:49). They are revisionist!

The bishops (many of whom continue to say the "Old Mass" in their private chapels, for reasons of devotion, no doubt – they feel so comfortable with their trusty, old Missale, "illegal" as such a thing is) thus find themselves caught in the middle. They live in terror lest one of their Revolutionary priests will succeed in maneuvering them into an incident which might get back to Rome. At the same time, they find themselves naked, before the ubiquitous, noisome knot of diehards among their flocks, who fixedly behold them in open and stolid opposition to centuries of Tradition (toward which they could not bow often and deeply enough at the Second Vatican Council). They open their Missales to run head-on into St. Pius V, Clement VII, Urban VIII, St. Pius X, Benedict XV, and John XXIII, the letters of whose editions of the Missale they must page through each time they wish to use it, and whom they now publicly disown. They turn the pages to the names of one magnificent saint after another, how became such, by their own admission, through the Holy Mass, but whose virtue has become too irrelevant to celebrate anymore – it must be "memorialized."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Footnotes.

60. The Catholic Counter-Reformation in the XXth Century. No. 5. June, 1970. R. P. Georges de Nantes, Editor. Maison Saint-Joseph-10, Saint-Parresles-Vaudes, France. pp. 9-10.

61. Acta Apostolicae Sedis. 30 April 1969. Vol. 61, No. 4, pp. 221-22.

62. Apostolic Constitution Si Quid Est of Pope Urban VIII from Missale Romanum, Desclee & Socii.

63. Cf. "Has the Church the Right." P. H. Omlor. Athanasius Press. Reno, Nevada. 1969.





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Reply
(01-26-2012, 10:42 PM)Norbert Wrote:
(01-26-2012, 07:59 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(01-26-2012, 04:12 PM)Norbert Wrote: What is outrageous to me is that non-attendees/people who don't believe the NO fulfills an obligation attack, attack, attack the "bad fruit" of the NO but the instant someone says they have a good spiritual experience with it, or yes, ,stay Catholic because it is around, then suddenly 1) that's just "feelings and opinions" and 2) I, or others like me are being "spiritually weak" because we can't make it on our own without some form of liturgy.

A nice ad hominem but neither I nor anyone on this thread has done it.

When people can provide theological reasons and authority for their view then perhaps people will take them seriously, until then those who attend the NO and come on here often to criticise those who don't are just doing this  :deadhorse:



Anywho...as to not calling anyone spiritually weak, I said that I couldn't make it without the NO and two things were IMMEDIATELY said.  1) that "my feelings don't matter".  and 2) that my opinion "smacks of modernism".  Read the thread. 

My theological argument is that the Vatican is not defective and has the authority to promote the NO as it exists at a core rubrical level.  It's pretty basic Roman Catholicism as far as I'm concerned.

Most likely because its true:

1) Is not entirely true, I said no ones 'feelings' mattered, only the facts did
2)Which is true, modernism seeks to reduce religion and dogma to mere 'personal experience' , your argument was 'I received spiritual consolation from it so it must be alright...' This is as can be seen from the facts that so do members of heretical or schismatic sects and false religions from their services.

As for arguing the Vatican is defective who has said that?  ???  What was said quite clearly is that the Vatican could not foist a harmful right on The Church
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