The Highest Study
#11
(01-28-2012, 06:00 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(01-28-2012, 05:46 PM)drummerboy Wrote:
(01-28-2012, 05:05 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(01-28-2012, 01:27 PM)drummerboy Wrote: I found Fr. Croiset's book very confusing.  I'm reading St. Teresa of Avila's Interior Castle; have to recommend that.

Fr Croisets book? Confusing?  Shocked

To be objective, I did read the book rather young.  However, it seems that the essence of the Sacred Heart devotion is simply a fervant devotion to the Blessed Sacrament and to Christ's love for mankind.  And Fr. Croiset's book throws in stuff about a fervant devotion to St. Margaret Mary Alacoque, and St. Colombiere and St Aloysius Gonzage are necessary too.  And I cannot abide books that say you must have a devotion to this saint, and then tell nice things, trying to make a sentimental appeal about how they loved God so much, and Ohh, if we but imitate them....as if mankind cannot love God and attain salvation if it does not pray to a certain saint.  This attitude is far too prevelant in Catholic literature.

Yes one does tend to find that catholics like to talk about saints, seeing as they were incredibly holy, in heaven and a good example to imitate Sticking tongue out at you

Don't take what I said out of context
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#12
(01-28-2012, 11:37 PM)drummerboy Wrote:
(01-28-2012, 06:00 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(01-28-2012, 05:46 PM)drummerboy Wrote:
(01-28-2012, 05:05 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(01-28-2012, 01:27 PM)drummerboy Wrote: I found Fr. Croiset's book very confusing.  I'm reading St. Teresa of Avila's Interior Castle; have to recommend that.

Fr Croisets book? Confusing?  Shocked

To be objective, I did read the book rather young.  However, it seems that the essence of the Sacred Heart devotion is simply a fervant devotion to the Blessed Sacrament and to Christ's love for mankind.  And Fr. Croiset's book throws in stuff about a fervant devotion to St. Margaret Mary Alacoque, and St. Colombiere and St Aloysius Gonzage are necessary too.  And I cannot abide books that say you must have a devotion to this saint, and then tell nice things, trying to make a sentimental appeal about how they loved God so much, and Ohh, if we but imitate them....as if mankind cannot love God and attain salvation if it does not pray to a certain saint.  This attitude is far too prevelant in Catholic literature.

Yes one does tend to find that catholics like to talk about saints, seeing as they were incredibly holy, in heaven and a good example to imitate Sticking tongue out at you

Don't take what I said out of context

I'm not
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#13
You make it sound like I don't believe in, and actually disapprove of, devotion to the saints.
1.  In reference to the book: the Sacred Heart devotion, as revealed in the book, is from the revelations to St. Maragret Mary Alacoque.  I find it extremely unlikely that Jesus came to tell us to pray to a certain saint.
2.  Is it impossible for me to love Christ if I do not pray to any certain saint?  No.  It is heresy to beleive otherwise.
3.  Devotion to the saints are just one of nearly countless ways to salvation the Church extends to us; each should be used reasonably, and according to the devotion of each Catholic.  If someone gets to heaven chiefly by praying to a certain saint, good!  I'm stating my opinion on the matter.  Obviously you have your opinion too.  As long as their is no heresy (which there isn't) let's just go our own way.
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#14
(01-29-2012, 11:33 AM)drummerboy Wrote: You make it sound like I don't believe in, and actually disapprove of, devotion to the saints.
1.  In reference to the book: the Sacred Heart devotion, as revealed in the book, is from the revelations to St. Maragret Mary Alacoque.  I find it extremely unlikely that Jesus came to tell us to pray to a certain saint.
2.  Is it impossible for me to love Christ if I do not pray to any certain saint?  No.  It is heresy to beleive otherwise.
3.  Devotion to the saints are just one of nearly countless ways to salvation the Church extends to us; each should be used reasonably, and according to the devotion of each Catholic.  If someone gets to heaven chiefly by praying to a certain saint, good!  I'm stating my opinion on the matter.  Obviously you have your opinion too.  As long as their is no heresy (which there isn't) let's just go our own way.

Of course not one is free to believe or not to believe in private revelations, however the devotion per se is approved and has a feast day, therefore whilst one can say they do not find the devotion helpful they cannot disparage the devotion itself.

As for the saints if it sounded like that it is because that is what your original post sounded like, Fr croiset does not say one must pray to certain saints, Fr Croiset says it is helpful to better practice the devotion to do so.
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#15
(01-29-2012, 08:23 AM)TrentCath Wrote:
(01-28-2012, 11:37 PM)drummerboy Wrote:
(01-28-2012, 06:00 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(01-28-2012, 05:46 PM)drummerboy Wrote:
(01-28-2012, 05:05 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(01-28-2012, 01:27 PM)drummerboy Wrote: I found Fr. Croiset's book very confusing.  I'm reading St. Teresa of Avila's Interior Castle; have to recommend that.

Fr Croisets book? Confusing?  Shocked

To be objective, I did read the book rather young.  However, it seems that the essence of the Sacred Heart devotion is simply a fervant devotion to the Blessed Sacrament and to Christ's love for mankind.  And Fr. Croiset's book throws in stuff about a fervant devotion to St. Margaret Mary Alacoque, and St. Colombiere and St Aloysius Gonzage are necessary too.  And I cannot abide books that say you must have a devotion to this saint, and then tell nice things, trying to make a sentimental appeal about how they loved God so much, and Ohh, if we but imitate them....as if mankind cannot love God and attain salvation if it does not pray to a certain saint.  This attitude is far too prevelant in Catholic literature.

Yes one does tend to find that catholics like to talk about saints, seeing as they were incredibly holy, in heaven and a good example to imitate Sticking tongue out at you

Don't take what I said out of context

I'm not

Emphasis in the above quotes added by me.
drummerboy makes an excellent point, I believe, and he's hardly dissing the Communion of the Saints as he's reading and recommending St. Teresa of Avila.  Different saints, schools of spirituality, devotional practices will each resonate distinctly with different people or seem eficacious in various individual circumstances.  The Church has provided a massive arsenal of these tools, not even a desert hermit could probable focus on ALL of them.

I always appreciate suggestions, such as this thread, but when someone says one MUST have a devotion to THIS particular saint or one must practice THIS particular devotion else their spiritual life is defective ... well no, I don't think so, and I belive that is the context drummerboy was speaking of.

I lived in a parish where (small but very vocal) groups insisted that Our Lady of Lourdes MUST be replaced by Our Lady of Fatima and Our Mother of Perpetual Help MUST be replaced by Our Lady of Guadalupe.  One young assistant pastor who was assigned the task of sorting the situation out refered to it as the "duelling Madonnas".  Certainly some form of Marian devotion is a cornerstone of  Catholic (and Orthodox) life.  To fight over "which form" is superior is rediculous.
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#16
(01-29-2012, 12:15 PM)moneil Wrote: drummerboy makes an excellent point, I believe, and he's hardly dissing the Communion of the Saints as he's reading and recommending St. Teresa of Avila.  Different saints, schools of spirituality, devotional practices will each resonate distinctly with different people or seem eficacious in various individual circumstances.  The Church has provided a massive arsenal of these tools, not even a desert hermit could probable focus on ALL of them.

I always appreciate suggestions, such as this thread, but when someone says one MUST have a devotion to THIS particular saint or one must practice THIS particular devotion else their spiritual life is defective ... well no, I don't think so, and I belive that is the context drummerboy was speaking of.

I lived in a parish where (small but very vocal) groups insisted that Our Lady of Lourdes MUST be replaced by Our Lady of Fatima and Our Mother of Perpetual Help MUST be replaced by Our Lady of Guadalupe.  One young assistant pastor who was assigned the task of sorting the situation out refered to it as the "duelling Madonnas".  Certainly some form of Marian devotion is a cornerstone of  Catholic (and Orthodox) life.  To fight over "which form" is superior is rediculous.

Of course except this is not what Fr Croiset suggests. He says in order to better practice the devotion of the Sacred Heart, now it obvious and a tenet of Catholic faith that certain saints can better help us achieve certain things and devotions e.g The Immaculate Conception for purity, St Francis of Assisi for humility, St Thomas Aquinas for wisdom etc... as well of course as the numerous titles of Our Lady that can better help in certain situations and patron saints over the things which they are patron of.

We cannot say someone must practice this devotion or this saint, excepting of course devotion to Our Lady where the common teaching of the theologians is that to neglect such a powerful aid of salvation is at least a venial sin and of course devotion to Our Lord himself. One certainly cannot say one must venerate Our Lady under this title rather than this title or else.
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#17
Moneil: you read me correctly.  And I cannot help but sympathize with you in your feelings about the dueling madonnas!

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#18
The Liturgical Year and praying the Breviary.
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